The Scientific Viewpoint 1981-08-14
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14 August 1981
The Scientific Viewpoint
Public Program
Birmingham (England)
Talk Language: English | Transcript (English) – VERIFIED
Public Program. Birmingham (UK), 14 August 1981.
Bala is a scientist and like him there are people who are charmed by science. The whole modern world seems to be very much influenced by science. But a scientific attitude has to be a very, very open minded attitude as he has told you.
We have to reach certain conclusions first of all within ourselves. Secondly you have to understand that if there is a hypothesis put before you it has to be first seen, experimented with, and then is to be accepted as a law.
Now from ancient times, whether in India, England, America, Jerusalem, anyplace we have been hearing about the all-pervading power, about getting a second birth or self-realisation, Atma sakshatkar, baptism as they call it.
All these things that we have heard are to be proved or they should be discarded as untruth. We cannot go with truth and untruth together.
So either we have to find out whether it is the truth or not what these people taught us, or whether it was completely a falsehood and there is nothing like that, that existed.
It’s a simple way some people have just discarded saying there is no God, there is no divine power. It’s all useless things; we are not going to waste, turning their back to it. That’s very simple to do.
The others have followed it blindly.
Both are wrong. To follow it blindly is as wrong as not to follow it. The best thing is to watch and see.
To say that: “So far we do not know whether it is true or not”, this is the right attitude with which you should approach Sahaja Yoga.
Now we must realise that in this world there are people who are seekers.
No doubt about it. They are not interested so much in money, so much in rituals of religions, so much in the power game, ego trips, but they think there must be something beyond. And there are many like this everywhere, thousands of them, and thousands of them, and thousands of them. No doubt about it.
But those who are at the helm of affairs naturally, because they are seeking to be at the helm of affairs, they are not bothered about this part, and they think that these people who are seeking are mad, either they are lost people or they are mad people, or they don’t know what to do with themselves. But one has to accept that there is a category of special people who are seekers.
I must say William Blake has talked about it very clearly. He called them ‘the Men of God’. In simple sentence ‘Men of God’.
These are the people who are not satisfied with what they have but they think there has to be something beyond.
Of course they might have made mistakes in their seeking, they might have gone wrong in their ignorance, they might have lost their way. They have been naïve to know what they should find out.
All said and done one has to accept the fact that in this world there are many, many seekers and people have to cater to that, even the people at the helm of affairs, even the media people.
All kinds of people have to cater to them, and find out what’s happening to that group of people, which are the most important people in the eyes of God. If He is at the helm of affairs, for Him seekers are the most important.
Now we have to realise scientifically that we have evolved to be human beings.
All right; but why? Why did we evolve as human beings? What’s the use of creating human beings which took billions of years? What did God achieve, or nature achieve by creating human beings who are running amuck actually?
They have out of science produced things like atom bomb, hydrogen bomb, all destructive forces. I mean, this was not expected.
That means they have missed the point somewhere in using the powers of science. There is a big confusion.
If you have a way of going above the human level and see, you can see that they are confused. They do not know what to do, whatever they try to do it goes in the wrong way.
They try to plan something, it ends up into atom bomb. They try to plan peaceful missions, it ends up into war. Anything they try, say, democracy or, you say, communism, everything they try, it ends up into fear. So what’s the thing? What’s the matter? Why is it happening?
We have to think about it.
After all we as human beings, who have taken so many years to be like this, must be something special. Must be some reason behind it, must be some purpose to this life, which has been created so beautifully.
But scientists are short-sighted people.
They just see the symptoms and not the disease. They just see what is available there and not beyond, and never they ask a question why it is there. That question they never ask, because they cannot answer it. They are honest because they have limitations. They do not expand anything beyond it, because they think it is imaginary.
But I am here to tell you that God is the reality, all-pervading power is the reality, and its action and powers is the reality, the rest of it is a falsehood.
Now this statement of mine I have to prove it, under all scientific laws I must prove it, otherwise you may crucify me. And it can be proved. It can be proved scientifically.
God has created you in such a way that in you he has laid the milestones of your evolution. You can see all these chakras that are put there, the centres; there are seven centres within you, of which you are not aware.
You do not know that there are seven subtle centres, which are the main centres - there are many more - which are placed within you, which are the milestones of your growth in the evolution.
Now there is another thing one has to understand, that if we have to become our Selves, if we have to know our purpose, there must be some arrangement within us for our germination.
If the seed has to become a tree, there is a primule in it, it’s placed there, just imagine in a little seed there is the map of all the trees it is going to become. Can you think of that?
In the same way within us, this human body, who we do not think much of, we take it for granted, there is a complete map of what we are going to become.
Within us is placed a power which is called as “Kundalini” in Sanskrit language. If it is Sanskrit it doesn’t mean that it is Indian or anything. In India the climate being very good, people tried to find out about oneself. And they went very deep and they located this power within themselves.
It has nothing to do with India. And if you ask any Indian man now, anywhere on the street, you’ll be amazed they will say they have never heard the name ‘Kundalini’.
But you’ll be amazed that this bone is called as sacrum bone where it is placed. And in Latin language, sacrum means sacred, that means people knew that this bone has something very sacred within us, in Norway where this language started. And they must be also having a word for this Kundalini, because when I went to Greece I found that they had a great knowledge of Kundalini.
This Athena itself is the primordial Kundalini. Athena - Atha means primal, primordial. They don’t know, Greeks don’t know, because they don’t know Sanskrit. But Atha means primal, primordial, and Athens comes from that Athena.
And She has that snake in Her hand, She is the primordial Kundalini and She came out of the head of Zeus who is a Vishnu.
So you can imagine how it was all connected in the ancient times and how the whole thing got dislocated. But this also does not give us any scientific proof whether it is there or not.
But I am just giving you the idea that it is not only in India people knew about it, but all over the places people knew about this power that existed within us.
And this power is the power that we can call is the power of desire to be one, to be united with the Self, with the Divine. And this power is not yet manifested and that’s why it’s called it is sleeping. Because this desire is not yet manifested, that’s why people say that this is a sleeping power within us.
Now scientifically you can see. Scientifically you can see that this bone pulsates when the Kundalini awakens. You can see with your naked eye. Not in all people, in some people where the path is all right it just shoots off.
But in people there’s obstructions you can see very clearly, very clearly, thousands of them we have seen and people have seen, this Kundalini pulsates.
And if you have a stethoscope you can feel the throbbing in that bone. And if you follow it up how it rises, you can feel the throbbing coming up to the head. And when it comes to the head it breaks that bone in the sense that it becomes a soft bone and you get your baptism. That is the real baptism.
Whatever was unreal was accepted so much everywhere that naturally it is now challenged.
I do not want to defend all that. People talked of baptism, they used to have baptism, regular baptism. But that’s all artificial you can see that the Kundalini doesn’t rise, it doesn’t break here.
In India we have a system of calling somebody a Brahmin and they are given a thread. And the same ceremony is done by a Brahmin who is not a Brahmin, who is not a realised soul.
And that one was done once upon a time was a realised soul, now it is done by somebody who is not a realised soul.
So when it is an unreal thing; supposing a son of a Brahmin comes and asks me that, “Mother, how do You say that this is how we become Brahmins?”, I’ll tell him no, you have to become Brahmin by a real happening within you, and is the real seeking that is blessed by this happening.
It happens - so far I’ve seen thousands of people. It’s a mass thing. It has to happen in a mass way. If it does not happen in a mass way, then it has no utility. It happens to one person, then people start crucifying, thinking of crucifixion of such a person, or giving poison to such a person, or torturing such a person.
In India also, such a good country like India, where people are so spiritually I should say sensitive, there also many saints have been tortured. The reason is [that] people have not got the sensitivity to understand that they are really saints.
So a big gap was there. And today I say the blossom time has come, and many people have to have this realisation and they have to feel their own Self and the all-pervading power.
The time has come, it’s a blossom time.
And everybody has to feel it, this is the power which is all-pervading, it’s the divine power of God’s love.
He created this universe because He loved us, there is no other reason because He’s complete, He’s perfect, He’s fully satisfied with Himself. But He just created because He loved and He wants as a gracious Father, as a Father who is extremely generous and loving, to give His kingdom to us, to invite us into His kingdom and give us all His powers, so that you know Him in your awareness.
As a result of this, what happens to you is that you become, again I say you become, not that what I say is just a brainwash, but you become collectively conscious, you become, you start feeling. Like he said you don’t have to tell that you are brothers and sisters. What happens really that you start feeling the power flowing through you, and then you placed your hands towards somebody, and immediately you know where he is catching.
These are the different centres within us, these five, one, two, three, four, five, six and seven centres. And you see them on the left, and the right hand, these centres very clearly.
The left side as shown here, which is the left-sided, which comes from the right side to the left side, is the power of desire, is the power that manifests our subconscious, is the power which looks after our past we can say, conditioning, and is our emotional power.
When we work emotionally, this starts emitting its own manifestation.
And the right sided one, the one we call right sided, actually comes from the left side and goes down, is the one, is the power of physical work and mental work, of action.
And when these two go into action, the first one creates a pouch-like thing called as superego, and the another one creates another pouch or another balloon like ego. And that’s how these two things develop. And at the age of, say, about twelve years we get separated and we develop our I-ness, and we all become different personality. That’s how we have received our freedom to grow. Now we grow within that egg-like structure of ours, we develop in that structure till we are matured enough.
Suddenly you find that this Kundalini rises, breaks this point just like the egg shells or you can say like a caterpillar, the transmutation and transformation both take place, and you become a butterfly or a bird. You are a different person altogether.
This has to happen; we have to find our meaning, because this creation that God has created with such love will be all wasted, it will have no meaning.
It is He who has become so gracious, it is He who wants you to get these powers, that it is all working.
At this level how can you think of paying for it? Just think of it. How can you pay for God’s love? He doesn’t understand money. How can you pay for it? It is impossible; it’s absurd, it is insulting. It shows we have no knowledge as to how God should be. He loves you.
How much did you pay for getting your breathing mechanism? Or how can you read about it? What do we read when we have to breathe? If by reading if you start breathing what would happen to us? Just think of it. It’s so spontaneous.
God has given us so much but we take it all for granted. And we don’t understand His value. In the same way this realisation which is the vital thing has to come to us absolutely free and spontaneously. Spontaneously, because it’s a living process and everything that is living is spontaneous. You cannot pay for it, you cannot say ‘at this time’ , you cannot guide it.
It works by itself. The only difference between the other evolutions and this evolution is this; that in that evolution you did not know, you were not aware of your evolution, but in this one you will be.
You will be know that you are transformed. You will know that it is flowing through you. In your conscious mind you will have the Spirit manifesting. The Spirit about which you have heard will be manifesting in your conscious mind.
So far it was just a witness of all your doings, but now it is a part and parcel of your being in the sense that you become the Spirit.
Again I say you become. I cannot say, oh, now you are all realised souls, no, it’s not possible. One enlightened light can enlighten another light; it’s so simple as that. You are all ready, you are all say lights, and just because I was enlightened when I was born I can enlighten you.
When Bala said about power, I thought I must be some sort of a dynamite or something. It’s a power of love. Can we understand power of love?
It has all the powers in it and it is more powerful than any other power. So far human beings have never used it, what they have used is the power of hatred. They have never used the power of love which is the most effective, beautiful, delicate power. It’s so dynamic because it is all-pervading.
You have to jump into that awareness to be that. But when the Kundalini rises this way, the first thing that happens, the first thing that happens to you is that physically you get cured. But I hope you don’t collect all the sick people tomorrow.
When Kundalini is awakened, then you get physically absolutely cleansed. It’s a cleansing process, and that’s how you will be happy to know that cancer can be cured.
Cancer can only be cured by Sahaja Yoga, I’ve been saying that. Now people when they get cancer they come to me, even doctors and very highly placed people. But when they go and tell people that we got cured with Sahaja Yoga, nobody believes them; they think this man is mad. So many diseases can be cured by Kundalini awakening. Like I would say, now supposing I have to come to this room, you have got it decorated, clean. If God is to be established in your heart then the body has to be cleansed.
So as a grace this mother your Kundalini, which is your individual Kundalini, she just cleanses your body. In one shot, overnight, so many people got cured (24.08).
Then your addictions and habits which come to you through your conditionings and domination of the matter on you drops out.
So many people overnight forgot to smoke, they just forgot they had to smoke. They were surprised after three days they realised that they have to smoke.
We have people who were really like druggists and chemists, you see, they had storehouses of drugs within them; and this they did because they were seeking, you see, nothing wrong with them. They got completely cured.
Because when you get the absolute, all these relative things fall off. Then your mental problems also get corrected. Here I would like to give a note on so many false gurus who have come to this country.
So many false gurus have come, and there are many who are now prospering in England as well as in America and everywhere. And people are so much enamoured by these false gurus. And they have been really paying such a lot of money to these gurus that I cannot understand that though they are mesmerised, how could they be so much befooled? And now, after befooling, they do not want to believe it. They came and told me, “Mother, our guru doesn’t talk ill of anyone”. I said, “The satan is not going to talk against [the] satans, is he?”.
Now the after effects of these gurus is so horrifying. In this hall only last time I had about I think eight or ten people who were just jumping on the seat, in a horrible condition just like mad people - today they are normal people - all suffering from epilepsy.
They have become bankrupt, they have sold their houses, their children are on the streets, they are divorced, they are sick, they have got blood cancer. Still they are madly in love with their gurus!
This kind of mass hypnosis was to work. Has been already indicated that false gurus will be coming. Now how do you make out a false guru? First of all anybody who takes money from you for his living cannot be a real person. He must live with his own earnings.
If he is a poor man, like Christ was, He lived like a carpenter’s son. Why these gurus take money from you? They have never seen a, even a motorbike, they want to buy Rolls Royces.
Throw them in the sea. There is another one who has got 5, 6 keeps and has got three, four landing spaces. And you think he is a guru. You are so impressed by their badly earned, illegally earned money.
Then what can God do also about it? How can you be impressed by such people who lead such a horrible life? Immoral people are we also so much in the game!
Very immoral, extremely immoral. They teach you dirty things. Especially in the West, I can’t understand when you had a person like Christ who was purity, nothing but purity.
He said, “You talk of adultery, I say that thou shalt not have adulterous eyes”. From there to what are you going? They may be Indians or anything. They are a curse on this earth and such people are followed.
Now I can tell you any one of them, those people who were jumping here, were the teachers. And they told me that when they held a meeting in Birmingham there were three thousand people. These people who were suffering from epilepsy. Why? Because all the media was after them, they paid the medias. And that’s how they were there. This is a very big problem, you see, the money begets money.
But you cannot get God with money. It’s a very funny vicious circle. Please understand.
And it’s the greatest destruction for human beings. Because these are the most beautiful flowers of God which are not paid attention to.
And these people went to the police, and told them about it, nobody’s willing to listen to them. You’ll be amazed. There was a diamond merchant who is now on the street begging.
Can you imagine these things have happened, and nobody is bothered about them. And they are saints; they are born to seek God. Have some understanding. And this is what is happening.
I am so very sad to see that people who are so beautiful in the eyes of God are tortured by these. And now even in England and France and everywhere I find people have taken a good hint from them and they have also floated big enterprises. In the name of God. In the name of God you cannot take a single pie. It’s sin.
You remember Christ had taken a hunter in his hand and started hitting all the people who were selling in front of the church.
They were not even selling God, but in front of the church they were having, He could not bear that insult. And these are selling God and selling realisation and selling these precious things.
My heart weeps actually to see these beautiful people are being tortured from one guru to another. They are seekers.
In Birmingham I met a man; I asked him how many gurus you have been? All his money, all his earnings he gave to gurus.
And he gave me a list of people which was written in three pages and both the sides covered. Can you imagine this gentleman? And he had all kinds of problems that you could think of. Everything, everybody, every part of his body was paining, he had this trouble, that trouble, this problem, that problem. There was no problem on the earth that he did not have. Who is going to pay for all this? I feel that people do not want to accept the truth sometimes. There are seekers, they get so fed up and so tired that they think Mother is another guru. I’m not a guru, I’m a mother. Guru is a very difficult task.
I mean the real guru is a very difficult, is a very hard taskmaster, I tell you.
I’m just a mother but Mother is the guru of gurus because She knows how to handle Her children.
They are very difficult people. Any guru if you want to meet who is a real guru, it’s not easy. Half of your flesh will be finished before you see him.
But the time has come that all of you must get it. With all self-respect, with all your glory, with all your freedom you have to get it.
You are honoured by God, you are respected by God. And that’s why whatever has happened has happened; now forget about it, better get your realisation. And then all understand all the knowledge of your centres which are within you. Everything about yourself, and about others and how you feel. (34.32)
Now, if there are say two children who are realised, you call them out and tie their eyes, is a very simple test, and ask them to feel the vibrations of another person. And immediately they’ll say this finger is catching. Means this man has got throat trouble. All of them.
There was a lady from Observer. She came to see me, she got her realisation. She’s very intellectual. But she was so surprised at her realisation. She said, “Mother, I must jump to it and write it”. I said, “No, no, please settle down, you must establish yourself”. She said, “No, no, I can’t help it, I must tell because I am a seeker and I know how people have suffered”.
So she went on, but afterwards, I think she was a little surprised how could she get realisation. She had (33.54) no faith in herself left, poor thing, perhaps.
So, one of the sahaja yogis said, “All right, call the children”. And she called the children. And the children started feeling the wind even from my photograph. And they said, “Oh Mother, wind, wind is coming, such a lot of wind is coming!”. And that’s how she was convinced.
You all are invited to it, believe me, you are invited. And have it, with all grace and beauty you all should have it. You have suffered too much. Now it’s time for all of you to get it, isn’t it? But believe in yourself. Why do you think that you cannot have it?
And the greatest disease of the West is that they all think they are very guilty. I mean, this disease must get out. If you think you are guilty, you cannot get your realisation.
What are you guilty for? What have you done? What guilt do you have I just can’t understand, it’s imaginary!
All the time you are guilty for this, you are guilty for that, any small thing. If you have not said “thank you” hundred times in day, one day, you feel guilty. I mean there’s no need to say so many thank you’s, also. And to think that you have done mistakes all your life this is mistake, that you have done mistake, you should be like this, your face should be like this, your hair should be like this, you should walk like this, you must have a dress like this.
If you put your knife this side to that side what does it matter in the eyes of God? It’s not important. And to think all the time that you are guilty creates a problem here.
You must have many people saying that I’ve got pain in the neck. Know that he’s feeling guilty for nothing at all. For such people there’s a very simple mantra to say: “Mother, I am not guilty”. Simple. Thrice you say and your neck will be all right. Is a very simple mantra to say, “Mother, I am not guilty”.
I am talking here about the ocean of love, the ocean of forgiveness. And what are these specks you have collected, imaginary ones?
This I discovered after coming to England that people feel guilty and then others also I have seen.
But in India there are very few people who really feel I tell you, they never feel guilty I think (Shri Mataji laughs).
They have the other problem, right side, but not the left side. I mean, they are feeling guilty... (Shri Mataji laughs). I mean, I don’t think we have so much time to sit down and think that we are guilty, we are so busy, you see, perhaps in that country. But this was my experience.
And with that little thing you got your realisation. Can you imagine? (36.45)
So there should be no self-pity, there should not be any unhappiness about it. But it’s just a play, it’s so simple, it is not frivolous, it is very deep working. But just a play, like you come in the room you ask me how to put the light on, there’s a switch you put it on. But behind that is a big organisation.
In the same way the Kundalini awakening, though it’s a play, behind that is a big organisation. And you need not take all the responsibility of world (38.38) all upon yourself. God is doing everything. Actually you are doing nothing.
What do we do? Tell me. At the most, if a tree dies, we make a chair out of it.
That’s all. And the chair sits on our head, we can’t sit on the ground then, once we make the chair. That’s all we do. We cannot transform one flower into a fruit, can we? Not even one.
The One who does billions and billions of these every moment, where are we compared to Him? To think that we are doing something, and that we are guilty for it, is all absurd.
Now I have to say one thing, that in one day’s lecture it’s not possible to cover all the points, all the centres and everything. But we have got certain booklets, something you can go through that. We have a big book also here available for those who want to read. But I would say don’t read too much, already you are over-read people. So it’s better not to read anymore.
It’s better to experience and develop the experience, and grow more, and then you start reading.
And we have a centre here, [in] Birmingham, which is doing very well now. You can meet those people, they - some of them only got realisation about a year back, and you will find they are scholars.
When I went to America the journalist asked me, “Mother, all your disciples are they scholars?” I said, “No, they are not. What makes you think that?” He said, “They are all scholars, they know such a lot”.
So once you reach that sap of life, through that you get the complete knowledge. You become the knowledge. Knowledge is the first thing you get. First you get the knowledge. That is also a knowledge which is your own, in the sense you feel hot, cold.
Now anybody who feels hot need not be an educated man or a scholar. He feels hot. Anybody who puts a finger to the thing feels hot. It’s like that, you feel. So first you get the knowledge about it, and then you get the joy out of it.
So I have to tell you one thing, that though it sounds very fantastic, it is not, it is absolutely simple. And this should happen.
I would like to have some questions from you about it, and then we’ll see how it works out.
All right? And not to be afraid, there’s nothing to have any fear about Kundalini. Because you must have read such big, big books saying that Kundalini burns you, Kundalini does this.
No, she is your own mother. She doesn’t do anything of the kind. These are the people who have never known what Kundalini is.
It’s like somebody putting the fingers into the plug and saying that electricity burns you. They are unauthorised people who have done all this, and that’s how they have suffered. Good way.
So any questions please?
Can’t think; if the Kundalini rises above this, you become thoughtless, you just can’t think.
And when she gets out from here, you start feeling the cool breeze from your head.
Really a cool breeze you feel it and from your fingers. As simple as that.
You are still doubting something. Ask a question. (42.59)
Lady: Do you need to seek the power before you pray?
Shri Mataji: Can’t hear. Loudly.
Lady: Do you need to seek the power...
Shri Mataji: Just come. Come, come, come here. Come. Yes, yes. Yes.
Lady: Do you need to seek the power within before you just pray?
Shri Mataji: Eh?
Lady: To pray, do you need to seek the power within, to release the power before you pray? Because it’s very difficult to pray...
Shri Mataji: To pray. All right. All right. May God bless you. Sit down. I’ll tell you. She is saying that, have you to pray to Kundalini? No, nothing, nothing, you don’t have to do. You see, prayer before realisation has no meaning, it’s like telephoning without connection (laughter).
There’s nothing to pray, nothing to pray, nothing to pray.
Another lady: Can you get the Kundalini, or something like it, and then it can die? Or once you’ve got it... (inaudible words).
Shri Mataji: Can you come here?
Lady: Pardon?
Shri Mataji: Come, come here, tell me. So.
Man: Now I think everybody has got a question to ask, but it’s - they don’t know how to ask the question.
Shri Mataji: They don’t know?
Man: I think everybody has got a question to ask, but they just don’t know how to...
Shri Mataji: What? Know what? They don’t know what?
Man: Everybody has got a question to ask You, everybody knows that, but they don’t know how to ask You.
Shri Mataji: They don’t want to?
Man: They don’t know how to ask You.
[Shri Mataji laughs]
Man: A lot of people just don’t know how to ask questions. You know what I mean?
Shri Mataji: They what, what questions? Ask now, what is there? What is you don’t know? I know English at least, so ask me any question in English. All right? Now, what did you say?
Lady: Can you get the Kundalini, and then it can die?
Shri Mataji: And then?
Lady: Then it can die? Or once you’ve got it, have you always got it? (45.06)
Shri Mataji: Oh, now, very good question. Alright. That’s a good question. Sit down. That’s a good one. Yes, sit down, sit down, sit down. She asked me a question, if it is awakened can it die out? It doesn’t. Once it is awakened it goes up, opens out. But, but it’s there. At the first shot, you see, it goes really in a big way, you get it in a really big way. You remember it. But then it goes back and looks after other parts where there’s a problem, so the force is reduced. But then you have to learn how to keep the force there and how to raise it, and this is what is called as vidya, is called as the knowledge.
How to raise the Kundalini ...
[Audio interruption]
... What is all this about? So that part you have to know. I am here to decode it.
Somebody came and told me, “Mother, I feel here tickling, all the time tickling”. I said, “This centre is not all right, you have to open this centre”.
Now how to open this centre? Then I had to tell that person you have to do this very simple method. You see, certain movements, because it is flowing from your hands, certain movements how to do it, which are the deities on different centres, if you come to know about it - for example, this centre is the centre of Christ. Between the optic chiasm is placed a very subtle centre of Christ. In the Indian scriptures He is called as Maha Vishnu.
Now He was born on this earth to suck the ego and superego. His crucifixion was there to suck our sins, means the ego and the superego. But He is to be awakened. Unless and until He is awakened it cannot happen - you go to church or you pray to Him - nothing will happen. But if Kundalini goes and stops there, and if you say Lord’s Prayer, it will rise. Is the proof that it is Christ’s centre.
Now this very important point that He should be awakened, that Christ was for this, was never known to Christians. It’s a living process. He said, “I am a living God”. And when they went to India the way they talked about Christianity was something absurd.
So Hindus still believe that this One who has to redeem us has to come. They don’t know that He is already born and crucified and He is the one. He is Maha Vishnu who is described in Devi Mahatmyam very, very clearly. He was specially made. Who was His father; who was His mother, all described. But the people who know English have no rapport with our ancient scriptures and those who went from here have no rapport with Christ. That He is to be awakened within us. He said, “I am to be born”. And how to awaken it nobody knew - only through Kundalini you can do it.
He said, it’s said in the Bible: “I’ll appear before you like tongues of flames”. Now what are these tongues of flames? Go and ask these people. These Jews do they know?
Mohammed has very clearly said that you are to become a pir; you have to be born again. I mean Namaz is one of the very good ways of raising the Kundalini, if you are using the Sahaja Yoga method. Means you get your realisation and then you do Namaz, you’ll be amazed.
Everything has a meaning only when it is a living thing. Otherwise it’s dummy.
Everything is a dummy stuff, you see, like this is a dummy thing. I shout at it or do whatever you like, it’s not going to work.
That’s why everything is a dummy, and that’s why people say, “Oh, Christianity is wrong”. If you go to the Muslims, they will say the Jews are wrong. The Jews will say the Muslims are wrong, the Hindus are wrong. I mean they are all blaming each other.
If you have to learn about yourself better go to the other party. But they are all dummies.
Once you get realised you will know they are all connected with each other, absolutely one, there’s complete harmony and concord.
Christ Himself has said, Those who are not against Me are with Me”. Now go and ask these priests who are those who are not against Him; who are with Him. I mean, He was not even given sufficient time, only for four years He could talk and He was killed.
Everywhere they have done a nice pickling up of all these great people. But Sahaja Yoga completely exposes their advents, their purpose, their places within us and also establishes all the fundamental things that are described in all the scriptures and their co-relationships (50.30). It’s such a fantastic thing. How it establishes? By proving it.
I’ll tell you one example, a simple example. There was a gentleman from Iran, he was a doctor, he came to see me. I mean, it is now we cannot contact him because he’s in Iran. But he came to see me, he was a Muslim. And I told him that Mohammed Sahib was born as Nanak Sahib in India. He could not believe it. He said how can it be?
Though Nanak Sahib had said it in a way, because Nanak Sahib was sleeping and somebody told Him that, ”You are placing your feet towards Mecca”. He said, All right, I’ll turn my feet to other side”, and the Mecca came that side. He said, “I can’t believe it, I can’t believe it”. I said, “But Mohammed Sahib has said that He is the last”. I said, ”I’m not sure of that, but maybe He must have decided to come back the way people are”.
He could not believe it. And he had stomach cancer, which is caused by - one of the reasons is fanaticism. I told him, “You have to believe in Him. He was one of the incarnations of the Primordial Master and He was the same Abraham, was the same Moses, was the same Socrates, was the same, and you have to believe it”. He said, “I can’t believe it”. I said, “Then I can’t cure you”. Then he went back and he was very sick. His wife said, “Now what is there after all, you see, we became Muslims because our parents were Muslims, and they told us that Mohammed Sahib was the last. After all you are to be saved”.
Then he came and he said, “All right, Mother, whatever you say I’m going to say”. I said, “Now you pray to Nanak Sahib instead of praying to Mohammed Sahib, because it is Mohammed Sahib who is angry with you”. And he got cured; he’s still living. He got cured. It’s so simple. You can’t believe it; it is so fantastic. It is worth seeing yourself with your own eyes.
The other day only, in Scotland, there was a gentleman who was suffering from terrible, terrible arthritis. He got completely cured and he came to see me in Edinburgh. Arthritis is absolutely curable; Diabetes is absolutely curable; paralysis is absolutely curable.
These all come out of your imbalances.
If you want to treat a tree and if you just treat a flower or a leaf you cannot treat the tree.
You have to go through the sap. Sahaja Yoga is a system by which you go through the sap of a personality and treat the whole body as a whole.
Because the whole is the one which is to be looked after and not a part of it, because you are a part of the whole. And once you get connected with the whole, that whole, that primordial Being looks after you.
And this is what has exactly happened to us that we are all separated from the whole, and we have to become one with that, with all our awareness and understanding; so that that whole looks after us.
So coming back to your question about Kundalini that it falls off, is a true thing with some people, it does go down. But all the forces that are divine are looking after you. You have to little bit cooperate with your Kundalini and she comes up, she makes you beautiful, absolutely beautiful.
Now, any more questions?
Man: Could you explain what exactly you have to do, to...?
Shri Mataji: That’s the exact point. You don’t have to do anything. You see, I have to do something about it, not you. In the beginning; then you can do it. Like this light is here, all right? This is enlightened. Now there’s another candle, which is not enlightened. that candle has to stay straight. Just keep the wick out, that’s all. And this candle has to just go near that and that gets enlightened.
I mean, I’m not doing anything about it, that also I must say, because sometimes the ego gets challenged; you know, somebody says, “Why, Mother, you?” I said, “You better do it. I’ll be very happy to be replaced. If you can come and do it, nothing like it. You see it will be such a change”. (Laughter) But what can I do?
I have to do it. Otherwise I’m a happily married woman; I have my children, grandchildren, everyone there, I have no problems. But I see your problem, and I see that Spirit in you, and I just feel in all my love and compassion that you must know it; that’s all. And once you know it, you can do it yourself. Like one light can enlighten many. Isn’t it? It’s as simple.
You become that. You don’t have to do anything about it; you have to just put your fingers like this and the power flows into you. It’s that simple. You won’t believe, but it is so. Because you are ready. You are just ready to be enlightened. Now this instrument is made, if it is not put to the mains what’s the use?
But how do you put to the mains?
Just put to the mains, that’s all.
The mains are there, and this is ready, you just put to the mains, you are just there.
Like a television set to a villager if you tell, he won’t believe that it is so fantastic. That there are all things around you; he will say, “I can’t see anything, how can I believe it?”
And you put to the mains and you start seeing the television manifesting, which is so fantastic.
In the same way, you are a special instrument created by God. You are just put to the mains.
You don’t have to do anything. What did you do for your evolution?
When we became human beings from a monkey, what did we do? Nothing, we did not cut our tail or anything, it just dropped off. (Laughter)
In the same way, we don’t do anything for this also; it’s just there; you are just ready; you just get it like that. You don’t know how fantastic you are. You don’t know that, na? I know that. But you will also know very soon (Shri Mataji laughs). When you know you will be amazed how fantastic you are within.
It’s said always, all the scriptures, all the great people have described you as very great. All of them have described.
But you must have faith in yourself that you are great, no doubt. And that instrument is ready, just ready. It is to be applied to the mains and once you start manifesting you can give it to others. It’s that simple.
You can’t believe it I know, but it is so, you will see that very soon. Do not doubt it too much, all right? Otherwise this brain will be working, “khat khat khat khat khat khat”.
That’s why I said for a while you should stop thinking about it, then it should work out. Because I’ve seen people who go on doubting very much, you see, they take time.
Just open, open out yourself, you must open yourself fully and it should work out (57.21). After all you want to have your realisation, isn’t it? What else you want? You don’t want to doubt for doubting sake! What’s the use of doubting also?
I mean, if there is, supposing I say there’s a diamond here. You will all run. Not only you but people from Australia will come if I say it is free, available. Don’t you think so?
They will say worth going by plane, if there’s such a big diamond available.
So no use doubting. Just have it.
You have a diamond in your heart.
No doubt. It will spark. Do not doubt.
This mind has been doubting all the time, what has it given you? Nothing. It will give you problems and headaches. Don’t be doubting Thomas’s (Shri Mataji laughs); be trusting.
Lady: Do you find people’s problems stop them getting realisation?
Shri Mataji: Come here; come. Yes?
Lady: Do you find people’s problems stop them getting realisation?
Shri Mataji: Do you find people’s problems...?
Lady: ... stop them getting realisation? ...
Shri Mataji: Problems - it stops a little, sometimes, little bit. But I have known all the permutations, combinations now. So I can get over all the problems; I think so. All right? [Lady: “Yes”] I know many permutations and combinations now of problems (Shri Mataji laughs).
In the beginning you’ll be amazed in this England I came here when my husband got elected to this job. For four years I worked on six people, for four years, can you imagine?
And now they just get it like that.
Now I know all the permutations, combinations of English people and England and western people. Now I’m going to America and I’ve been there before also; so keep your fingers crossed; I’m sure I’ll work it out there also.
(Shri Mataji laughs) Everybody is an interesting sample of some combination. But I know all the keys somehow; I’ve studied it and I’ve put all attention to it.
It has worked out and all these problems I know what you all have. Somehow it works out, so don’t you worry about that. If there were no problems, there was no need to do this.
I mean, you would be just there. There has to be problems.
Any other problem? (Shri Mataji laughs)
Man: Excuse me, please. We’ve got seven chakras over there; can you please tell us what part each one plays?
Shri Mataji: Alright. See, that’s good. Now all that is so elaborate I may not be able to tell you today; but can you come and show?
But I will be able to say in short, all right? Now he is coming; he will show you. I’m just...
Now the first chakra which is below the Kundalini, the first one, is the very important centre, which is bestowed by a deity, which is the embodiment of innocence. Is the centre of innocence, the first chakra.
To explain it more we can say when we were at the carbon stage, carbon stage. Now carbon is a very important element, you know that. In the periodical laws it is placed in the centre; it is tetravalent, means it has four hands. Either it can give four hands or take four hands.
And at that stage only the nature started producing life. So that is the stage where we were at carbon level.
And nature is innocent. A chair doesn’t get angry with you. It’s only we can get angry (Shri Mataji laughs). So the nature that we are, is innocent, our basis is innocence. We are surrounded first by innocence. We are basically innocent people. So this is the first centre, is of innocence.
Then the second centre that you see. Actually the Nabhi we can take it. Is the second centre and the third centre are connected.
From the second centre arises the third centre. The second centre is the centre of our seeking. This one manifests our solar plexus. And this caters to our seeking. As amoeba we were seeking our food through our stomach; it is in the stomach we can say.
Actually they are all placed in the medulla oblongata; they are placed in the spinal cord.
But they manifest outside the plexuses.
For example, the first one manifests the plexus called as pelvic plexus, which is responsible for our excretory functions. All right?
Now the second one, which is the one I told you just now, manifests the solar plexus, is for our seeking.
And now you are at a stage, the seekers, where you are seeking the ultimate, the beyond.
But there are people who are still seeking money, there are people who are still seeking other things. But I take it for granted that you are seeking Divine. So the seeking reaches that stage (1.03.08) at that centre.
The other centre that comes out of it is the centre of action. The seeking has to put into action, otherwise supposing you are hungry you have to go into action to get it.
So this is the centre of action within us, which works within us all the activities for the future, it thinks and all the activities that we require for our mental or our physical needs.
So this is a centre of the Creator.
The above centre [to] that is the centre which is the centre of Heart as we call it. Is the centre which represents your sense of security. When the child is about twelve years of age, this centre creates antibodies in your sternum bone and these antibodies by the time the child is twelve years of age go into the whole body. And they are the ones who react to any invasion on the body. And these antibodies react; say for example, all our injection system works on that.
We put a little virus, which is an outsider invader inside the body and when you put that, they get energetic to fight. And because of their energies they fight the disease and we get cured.
This is the principle of that is. This is the centre of our sense of security. When we are insecure, then this centre starts pulsating and emitting more antibodies and looking after us. And this is a very important centre within us.
But there are other two other centres on sides of it; one is of the mother, one of the father; on both sides. I mean they have sub-centres also. Now this one can be called as the one which manifests cardiac plexus.
Then above that is the centre which is behind here, is the centre of our collectivity. Is the centre where we become one with the whole. Is the centre which gives us the idea that we are one. By this centre we become also the witness of the play of the Divine, later on when it is enlightened. It is a very important centre by which we talk to others, we communicate to others on the right hand side.
On the left hand side emotionally we become attached to people.
Then above that is the centre, as I told you, of Christ, or we can say the centre of ascent.
There is the door, which goes into this area of limbic area, which is grossly known as limbic area, which is the kingdom of God.
And above is the last one here where this point. The whole thing is one centre, the limbic area and this point. When the ego and superego are sucked in, the Kundalini rushes through, and this fontanel bone area becomes very soft and you start getting the cool breeze from that part.
Now in short I’ve told you, but in details you can go through the book, it’s all written down about these centres which are the basic seven centres but there are many other centres, which are sub plexuses of these.
Amazingly there’s one thing that all these centres are manifesting the plexuses outside and all these plexuses. For example here, the plexus is the one that looks after the pituitary and the pineal, these two things.
So it is related absolutely with the gross as well but we go from inside outward, while the doctors go from outward inside. Which you cannot go, you cannot enter into a tree through a leaf, you can enter only through the sap into it.
These are in short I have told you. But there are all these things are clearly written down in a book that they will give you. They have got it. Have you got that book? [ Yogi: “Yes, Mother” ] You can get. It’s a very small booklet. Do you charge any money for that? No? It’s free? You charge a little. How much?
Yogi: Ten p’s or something.
Shri Mataji: Eh?
Yogi 2: Ten p’s or something.
Shri Mataji: Ten p’s or something they charge. You see because maybe, so far all these boys have been printing it and paying for it, for the whole also. I mean, this thing requires money no doubt, but these boys have been doing it. And it’s all right, not much, you see.
Birmingham is a cheap place that way, I must say, compared to some places I went to.
Also everybody is trying to fund it so that, I mean, there is no sort of any profit basis or anything. But like ashram we have got, we have got say ten people, they take a house, they live there, look after it and that’s an ashram. There’s no sort of a profit making or any fees or anything. Because they live there, they have a house, they live there, that’s all. It’s as simple as that. We do not have any such organisation; there is nobody who is organised in it. You cannot organise God. So there’s no organisation, they are there because of their free will, because of their freedom and because of their love, and because they feel responsible that they should do it. There’s no force on you; there’s no compulsion; there’s no money taking; there’s no membership.
Man: Is it also possible, please, for any of those centres to awaken without the knowledge of the individual?
Shri Mataji: You see, sometimes it happens that a person can be attacked from the sides and then that centre can go on emitting too much. Like in cancer it happens.
That one of the centres you see, say for instance the stomach. Now, if you are eating, say, something which is irritating the stomach centre, then what happens that this centre receives all the energies from everywhere, all the stored up energy, and starts working very hard. When it starts working very hard, it gets dislocated.
When it gets dislocated, what happens that there is no relationship left with the whole, and the cells starts growing more than in relation to the whole. And we say malignancy has been set in. And like that can happen, they can get over-excited.
But the energy from other centres is brought in one, and they get over-excited without any relationship to the whole. And that’s a very dangerous situation.
Such a thing can happen and sometimes it can happen on certain centres where people just get possessed. And they think they have got some sort of a great experience. Is not so.
Like there was a lady who always felt that she’s getting out of her body. Ultimately she got her cancer. Now, of course, she is cured, she’s all right. But these all such experiences come from the left and the right side. Not from the superior.
The one experience on the left hand side is of the collective subconscious, because on the left hand side of this channel that you see is the collective subconscious. Now, we do not know, because these are unknown areas for us; the collective subconscious on this area and [the] collective supraconscious on this area.
Now, for example, spiritualists they work from the collective subconscious; it’s a very dangerous thing to do. We have nothing to do with spirits, nothing to do with them.
We are in the centre and the present. If you indulge into spiritualism, you’ll find you’ll develop a very funny situation and I don’t know how they end it up.
Apart from mental trouble, you’ll be amazed, I mean, I’m amazed at it myself, that all the cancer patients I’ve seen so far are all attacked from the left side, not from the right side.
Those who are attacked from the right side, is the supraconscious, the collective supraconscious, are the people like Hitler. Who get possessed by very, you can say, very, very dominating personalities who are dead, or those who lived in the future, are the great planners, this, that, they get attacked. And once they get attacked there’s an outlet. (1.10.34)
For example we can say Hitler was like a medium. And he transformed other people into that kind of a frantic temperament. I mean, it took him eleven years to build up that kind of a domain of Satans, you see, but it took eleven years. And I would blame then the people who allowed this to grow. And once this grew up and suddenly it blew up them, then they realised; oh God where are we?
So these attacks can come from these two areas - they are called as adi bhautik and adi daivik in Sanskrit language.
But this is, is the Spirit; is the Atmik; is the superior; is the super-most experience where you become the Spirit itself - your Spirit, not somebody else’s.
All these experiences are not healthy; they should be avoided for all those who are seeking reality. I mean, if you want to have some jugglery, then it’s a different thing, but it is a very dangerous thing to play with it. All these gurus are using only this, either left or the right side. They use these spirits and that’s how [they] mesmerise. That’s a very dangerous state.
The other day - Sahaja Yoga has become so powerful now that they, these people gave realisation to an archbishop of black magic.
Can you imagine? I was amazed. And this fellow was quite all right, then he went home and he found everything was moving around. These, all the things that were there, were moving around. Now the spirits were tempting him back. They thought if we show some sort of this jugglery he will be back again.
And they telephoned to me, “Mother, now what to do?”. I said, “Why did you give him realisation? There was no need to give him realisation”. He said, “Just he came and he got it”. I said, “Leave him alone, I’ll look after him, you don’t worry”.
It happens now. This Sahaja Yoga is so great. imagine giving realisation to the archbishop of black magic. I mean, this is too much (laughter). But it’s doing, it’s happening (Shri Mataji laughs).
Man: May I say by the way that I can see a white aura around your head for the last hour.
Shri Mataji: Yes, it’s true (Man: “Yes”), but I would say don’t see that. You’ll see many things, because I’m something more; there’s no doubt. Quite a lot I am. That you have to discover later. You can see many things. But I would say don’t see anything, because this also seeing is not the thing - is experiencing is the thing. And that’s why you must experience your being.
And people have seen me in many forms, many things. That’s not important. That’s not important. Important is that you must get your realisation. I must be something, isn’t it, to do it?
No doubt. There must be something about me. But I don’t want to talk about it just now. I’m very tactful; you better find out.
Lady: Why is peace and tranquillity adjusted on your face?
Shri Mataji: On my face? (Lady: “Yes...”)
(Shri Mataji laughs) You are also going to get it. That’s all I can say. It is there, inside. It is all - whatever is inside comes out, isn’t it? You are all peace, tranquillity, everything inside. You are also the same, not only me.
You have to just feel it.
You will, you will no doubt, you will feel it, no doubt. I assure you. That’s why I’m here; I want you to enjoy that what I am enjoying. That’s all.
You see, it’s like a drunkard who cannot enjoy his drink. That’s why I say that I am a capitalist because I have all these powers and I am the greatest communist because I must share. I can’t help it without sharing.
So this is such a combination. All right?
Lady: Thank you.
Shri Mataji: So should we have it now all of us? Because it is within us so why not have it?
Will you please put your hands just like this straight, put both the feet straight on the ground just like this. This is just to help your Mother Earth to take away the problems just like that. And close your eyes; just close your eyes, it will work out in no time. Just close your eyes. It’s all right.
Now you don’t say anything; just close your eyes and put your hands like this. Now feeling the cool breeze? Already? Now enjoy it. Just close your eyes.
Now few things I will tell you which you have to say in your heart. One of them as I told you, say in your heart thrice: “Mother, I am not guilty”. Say it thrice please.
Believe in what you are saying that you are really not guilty. In the eyes of God you are not at all guilty. You have no business to judge yourself. Just say, “Mother, I am not guilty”. That is to establish your love for yourself. That “Mother, I am not guilty”; just say that.
If there is any shaking in your hands or anything, then keep your eyes open. If there’s a little shaking may be because there is some sort of pressure on your nerves. If there’s a shaking or anything, doesn’t matter, after some time it will go away. Just put your hands towards me or you can throw away the shaking like this, thrice. And it will be nice; you’ll like it, if you feel the shaking.
Now first thing you say with your heart: “Mother, I am not guilty”.
The second thing, thrice you have to say that. That you have to say is that, “Mother, I forgive everyone”. Just say that. People might say that it is difficult; nothing difficult to say it. Just say, “Mother, I forgive everyone”. Just say that, because by not forgiving actually you are carrying an unnecessary load and harming yourself. You cannot harm others, you are harming yourself.
So just say, “Mother, I forgive everyone”. Say it thrice; just say that. These are your main problems. First is feeling guilty, secondly not forgiving others.
Go on saying it, “Mother, I forgive everyone”.
Now you can put your right hand on your heart.
Keep your eyes shut. And ask a question; “Mother, am I the Spirit?” Ask thrice, “Mother, am I the Spirit?” Ask thrice, you will start getting the cool breeze at this point.
If not you just say without feeling guilty, again I say without feeling guilty, you just say, “Forgive me if I have done anything wrong out of my ignorance”. That also you say it thrice.
Now ask the question, “Mother, am I the Spirit?” Ask thrice, just ask the question, “Mother, am I the Spirit?”
Now put both the hands and see if the cool breeze is coming in the hand.
If it is not coming in the right hand, then put the right hand towards me and left on the stomach.
Now ask a question saying, “Mother, am I my own teacher? Am I my own Guru?”
Those people who have been to wrong gurus will get a problem. You have been to someone? All right, doesn’t matter, we’ll - just see now, you can see the result just now. You can’t even control it. They shake before me.
See, if you have been to a wrong person you can just see it, happening to him. All right? Doesn’t matter. Ask him to put his hand outside, he’ll tell you what is to be done. Just go to him, he will do it. Just go to him, he’ll tell you what is to be done. To whom you have been?
Man: To spiritualist church.
Shri Mataji: Eh?
Man: To spiritualist church.
Yogi: Spiritualist church.
Shri Mataji: Shaking, they shake, these spirits shake. How are you? Have you got it?
Have you got it? Have you got the cool breeze? (Lady: “Yes, I have”) Good, good. Have you been to spiritualist church yourself? (Lady: “No...”) Thank God. (Lady: “This is my first time here”)
Great, you are really pure. You got it (Lady: “I got it?”) Yes, you got it.
What about you? He’s a born realised, no? He didn’t feel it? Now, just see, because he was sitting next to you, now see. Put your hands towards me. He just started shaking, terrible shaking, you should have seen that, how he shook before me. It’s terrible. Have you got it?
Yes. Have you got it, my child? Not yet?
What about you? Just put your hands like this. You have got cool breeze? (Man: “No”)
You should. You are doubting still? You have got sinus trouble, have you? (Man: “I haven’t, no; I’ve had that”) Hm, you had it; all right, we’ll work it out. Doesn’t matter. Will work out; just put your hands like this; it should work out.
Mrs. Joshi, you got it? Your face is changed, you know. You’ll look at least ten years younger, all of you. Did your friend get it? Did you get it? (Lady: “No”) Cool breeze? (Lady: “Absolutely nothing”) Nothing? All right, we’ll work it out.
For journalist you must ask a question. “Mother, am I the witness of the whole play?” Just ask the question. (Lady: “Am I? I am sorry, I didn’t understand”) Am I the witness, witness of the whole play?
You are a witness; you are not involved in it; you see, a journalist has to be a witness, a sakshi.
Lady journalist (not clearly audible): Yes, I show what is something that happened. Obviously I wouldn’t declare otherwise, and I am interested in this.
Shri Mataji: Yes, just say that. Say in your heart, “Am I the witness of the whole play?” In your heart you can say that. Ask the question. You have to first witness it, then you can report it.
What about you? Are you all right? Are you getting the cool breeze? Little bit. It will work out, you watch me without thinking, let’s see it. Ah? Better? Working out (Shri Mataji laughs), [it] works out. It’s like, you see, how on a tree some fruits appear faster than others. It’s like that. Gradually, everybody will get it. Don’t you? Just sit down; comfortably, have confidence. You got it? Have you? Not yet. All right, he’s got right sided. You’ve been to some – you have been reading about something like that? That’s it.
Now you ask a question: “Mother, are you the knowledge?” Just ask the question in your heart. And the whole knowledge of this avidya will go away. Ha. Ha, now you got it?
Little feeling. It’s very subtle.
Reading, you know, spoils it [a] little bit. So just say that, it will work out. See this lady, journalist lady.
Who else hasn’t got it? Raise your hands, those who haven’t got it. All right. What? There’s nothing to fear, nothing to this thing. It must be worked out. It has to be worked out, everybody has to get it, you are right. All right? Now sahaja yogis should work on people who haven’t got it. You haven’t got?
[ End of audio ]