Press Conference and scientific discussion 1990-01-13

Location

India

Talk duration

70'

Category

Interview

Spoken Language

English

Audio

Available

Video

Available

Text Status

Reviewed

13 January 1990

Interview

Mumbai (India)

Talk Language: English | Transcript (English) - Reviewed

Press Conference and scientific discussion, Mumbai (India), 13 January 1990.

Rajesh Shah:

So we invited you to come this afternoon - I recognize it's a Saturday afternoon but glad that you took the trouble to come over here today uh.. as Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi is here in Bombay and we thought it would be a good idea if there was an interaction with the Press.

All of us here, who have been followers of Shri Mataji, feel very strongly that uh.. the message of Shri Mataji, who was the founder of Sahaja Yoga, is a very important message not only for India but for the whole world as such and this is shown in practice. The persons you see over here, they are Scientists, Medical doctors, Psychiatric doctors, businessmen, lawyers, - diplomats - diplomats and who have achieved very considerably in their own lives. Now, the message of sahaja yoga has been going very far and deep in their own country. We have guests over here from the Soviet Union. and uh.. in the Soviet Union in very recent months, Shri Mataji has been there three times and Her meetings have been chaired by, attended by, very senior people in their government and thousands upon thousands of people. Over here, even as follow-up meetings after Shri Mataji has left the Soviet Union, uh.. some of our group members here, who have been there, even their, to their meetings thousands of people coming. So, it's a very important message that is going through. It's something which is very deep - we thought we would like to share it with you because we believe it's very important for India as well - it's important for our country. The times are such that uh.. sahaja yoga is very relevant and almost everybody here has something very special to relate. I don't think there's time for everybody but we do have a number of people who are uh.. sahaja yogis who are either scientists or others, who may talk to you for a few minutes and, come to, and, and give you their experiences.

In the Press we read all kinds of things, we, it's, we get news about so many things, that's the reason it's, it's one of the main means by which people, we communicate in the mass and if there's something good to communicate, if there's something positive, something that has a relevance, something that will have, has a future in which things are going to change, something which has very many interesting facets to it I, I believe it would be interesting to you as well and that's what uh.., why we requested you to come this afternoon. We have uh.. Shri Mataji's own work for the last twenty years, where as the handout might be there, but as you uh.., uh.., if I may please introduce this very briefly that Shri Mataji comes from, as was born in the Salve family in 1923. Shri Mataji has fought in the Independence struggle, She's been jailed as a student leader and thereafter uh..been married to Mr. C.P. Srivastava of the I.A.S. Mr. Srivastava's career's very well known here. He was uh... in the I.A.S., rose, he also became Chairman and Managing Director, Shipping Corporation. Just prior to that he was Special Secretary to Mr. Lal Bahadur Shastri when Mr. Shastri was Prime Minister, and in the last sixteen years he has been Secretary General of the United Nations Agency on Shipping and living in London - both he and Shri Mataji's their main residence has been in London and each four years - this is an elected post, it's not a post where you have uh.. India has any right on it. It could be anybody in the world could be elected to this post and each four years he's been elected unanimously. He's just completed sixteen years there and earned many trophies, many medals and recognition from more than thirty or forty countries. But in the last twenty years Shri Mataji has been coming out and talking about sahaja yoga and slowly the people have recognised around Her and today sahaja yoga has spread to more than thirty or forty countries.

Shri Mataji's message is about the recognition of one's own potential, one's own energy inside and it actually happens - it's not just the talk. It's also totally related to what has been written in our shastras from beforehand that there is a Primordial energy, that there is it's reflection within, within ourselves that's called the Kundalini. The Kundalini is of the form of the mother within one and in the presence of Shri Mataji, or Her photograph, the Kundalini rises and you have the actual experience yourself. You feel a silence within one, it's a complete sort of happiness, total awareness, you feel a cool breeze in your hands, the cool breeze on your heads and this is an actual experience of thousands and tens and tens of thousands of people not only in India but all over. It's possible today, if you like and if you request Shri Mataji, maybe you could also have it but perhaps it might be good idea to invite some of our friends here to give a talk for a few minutes, if Shri Mataji if you permit.

Shri Mataji:

Now, I think, I will ask Dr. Rai because in, he went to - he actually uh.. was very successful in a Neurologist meeting there in Russia. Not only that but, I mean, he was amazed the way the Neurologist uh.. saw the point and understood the working of the Parasympathetic and all that so I would like him to say few words first of all. [HINDI - INKO WOH DE DO] Thank you. Now here, he was, he was head of that Physiology department Delhi University. [HINDI - PEHLE INHE BATA DIJIYE KI [UNCLEAR]] Haan,

Dr. Umesh C.Rai:

Ladies and gentleman - you see, first I would like to introduce myself.

I've been a Professor and Head of the Department of Physiology at Maulana Azad Medical College, then I was the Chief of the Physiology Department at JIPMER, Pondicherry and recently I was the Chief of the Department of Physiology and also Medical Supritendent of The Lady Hardinge Medical College and the Sucheta Kriplani Hospital. Now first I would like to tell you that how I came into sahaja yoga. Now, I listened to the talk of Shri Mataji in 1984 and, as Mr. Rajesh Shah has told you, that in the presence of Mother the Kundalini of a person awakens and he gets the experience of a cool breeze. Now all the persons present in the hall got the experience of the cool breeze but, unfortunately, I had a little doubt in my mind as many persons initially have, so I very humbly requested Shri Mataji that, "Mother, I would like to do some research work because I would like to find out whether actually one gets the feeling of the cool breeze or it is simply a subjective feeling or You told me earlier also it might be due to hypnosis or other thing." So I took the permission of Shri Mataji into my University faculty meeting and I told them that, "I want to work on sahaja yoga and to establish whether one gets the cool breeze or not." There was a little opposition in the faculty meeting because they wanted to work more on fundamental aspects but ultimately seeing that yoga is very important and one must know what happens, you see, when yoga is done in the body, the University agreed on it and got it recognised as a subject for research. Now, two of my students, you see, - I took one student, who did a Doctorate on sahaja yoga philosophy and he tried to find out that what are the physiological effects of the Kundalini awakening by sahaja yoga? That was the first thesis done. It was presented, scrutinised by the examiners foreign as well as outsiders and uh.. Dr. Sethi, who was the my student, got the degree of Doctorate uh.. in Physiology Medicine on this subject. Another student Dr. Chugh is here, uh.. he was the next my student, postgraduate student and he has also been given the degree of Doctor of Medicine on sahaja yoga.

His work was on the role of sahaja yoga in the treatment of psychosomatic diseases. So these were the two theses and they were very highly credited by the examiners and in Lady Hardinge Medical College we also started giving sahaja yoga to the patients, you see, for the treatment of psychosomatic diseases. Because of the first discovery, you see, of the physiological effects, we found that one is doing a sahaja yoga, you see, there is a change, a profound changes in the body which occur and which are very important, you see, uh.. for their utility for the human beings. Because in modern age, you see, we find what happens is that we are going into stress and strain of life. If you read, you see, the medical literature you find people say that it is the psychological stress which is responsible for increasing incidence of hypertension in most of the Western countries, developing countries as well as the developed countries. And we found by our first thesis, you see, which work was done, that this could be a very important, if a person practices sahaja yoga, the stress factor can be managed very nicely because all the parameters, you see, for testing whether person is in state of stress, tension or anxiety are his in a relaxed state were, are done, and we found that a person who did sahaja yoga only for twenty minutes a day, you see, in about three to four months time there were changes in blood, there were changes in the heart, there were changes in the electroencephalograph, there were changes in the muscle activity uh.. and the changes in the neurotransmitter. One of the very important neurotransmitter Adrenaline, you see, which is produced by the stimulation of the Sympathetic Nervous system when you are anxious, you see, you are in tension, what happens is there is greater pouring of Adrenaline in the body and as a result of which your heartbeat increases, you see, and you find uh..there is a muscle, you see, blood Lactic acid increases and persons if they are having accumulated stress for years together, you develop various type of Cardio-Vascular disorders, like essential Hypertension is one, Ischemic heart disease is another and even Arrhythmia. So, we try to find out that how uh..we try to do it on the patients and that is how the work of Dr. Chugh started, you see, and we did the work on patients and we took two groups, you see, we took the patients of Hypertension as well as Bronchial Asthma. Bronchial Asthma also has got a psychological factor in it, stress factor. We took these two groups and, to our surprise, we found it gave a dramatic affect.

98%, if I am correct, you see, the patients of hypertension improved and then they were without drugs on follow-up and they had no [UNCLEAR]. The other group, which was simply on drugs, was not cured, you see, and they were getting, you see, their blood pressure very high uh.. and so we concluded that if a person is doing sahaja yoga regularly then you find the essential hypertension can be treated and the persons who are prone to essential hypertension, you see, they can be prevented and similarly in Bronchial Asthma, you see, we found that was very, very helpful. Now after this, you see, we uh.. recently went to Russia, you see, and in Russia, you see, we, I attended a conference in Yalta and the conference was very good because the, the role was there the uh.. it was on the yoga and self regulation and this was organized by the people of non-traditional medicine. In Russia also people want that, they are fed up with the drugs, and they want that there should be a system of medicine, you see, which may be non-traditional and they found that yoga is very good. So many types of yogic were there - you see,T.M. people were there, Rajnishites were there, you see, the Brahma kumaris were there, magneto therapy were there, so many were there. But in the end of the conference, you see, they found they were convinced that sahaja yoga is one of the best and it is a scientific work has been done, it has been proved statistically that, you see, the person who is doing sahaja yoga, is able to regulate his brain activity. You see, as Mother has told, you see, when one is doing sahaja yoga, you are in balance. The activity of the Sympathetic and Parasympathetic it is modulated and you are in a balance and that is how when a person is doing sahaja yoga your diseases are automatically cured. More so, they are prevented. If a normal person is doing you can prevent the occurence of disease. So, in Yalta conference was very nice. Then in Moscow we had another conference and there too it was a conference on yoga and sports and I told them, if a person - you see, there what happens there in sports also they are in great tension because finding out that they should be able to keep the time, you see, and they should win in it and all those things so I told them, if a person is doing sahaja yoga, you see, they will be able to manage the stress factor which is there. And again, you see, it also because it acts at the level of the limbic system, you see, it might help in the efficiency as well. Then I, I gave a talk in the Institute of Neurology at Leningrad, you see, it is one of the very famous institute there - they do a lot of operations and they requested me to give a talk because they said they are also very much affected by uh.. the hypertension because what happened tension is there, many people develop hypertension so they said we want to do it and they took the realization and 90% people, doctors who were there, they got the realization. Now, another thing we are doing in Delhi nowadays, is the affect of sahaja yoga on Epilepsy. So they got very much interested to do work on Epilepsy because the granuloma epilepsy can have no treatment and the drugs which are given they are to be given for the whole life. So they said it would be very good idea if Dr. Rai you could get this thing done here and, and we are thinking, they have signed rather a project also where we will go and give them the initiation, sahaja yoga, the patients and they will try also to find out that what is the result. In Delhi we are doing it in collaboration with the Defence Institute of Physiology and Allied Sciences - the results are very good. We are finding that the attacks of epilepsy, you see, are decreasing when a person is doing sahaja yoga.

So and then you see, we had also did some public lectures and as Rajesh Shah told you just now you see, about 1500 to 2000 people were attending the lectures and there were requests from many places that many centers may be opened. We have already got a center at Leningrad, Moscow, Kiev and Sochi. They are the four places where the centers are there but they wanted center at Tashkent, Yalta, [UNCLEAR - NOGINSK?] and Siberia and so on. So there was a very good response and the people think there that this could be one of the non-traditional system of medicine uh.. in Russia. They are very much. You see, the Ministry of Education, we had a meeting with them and uh.. there, I think, the Deputy Minister was very much interested and he said, "Dr. Rai can it help it in the development of the children, can it help at the rehabilitation centers?" I said, "Certainly." Because, you see, as a physiologist I know that if the actualization of the Kundalini takes place at the level of the limbic system, which affects the behaviour of a person, naturally it is going to be a very successful because the behaviour of these children, you see, in the orphanages, you see, is a little different. So, if they do it and practise, it comes down to a little normal level.

So they are thinking of doing a research on this as well. Similarly, in other other schools also they wanted because it can also uh.. increase the creativity in children because of the connections of the limbic systems with the frontal lobe. You find the children who are doing sahaja yoga, they excel in their performance. This is our own experience, Mother. At Delhi we have seen, some of the children who were very poor and who were coming to the centers and doing this, they stood first in their classes - now remarkable! This is all because of the creative power, you see, when the children are doing it, you see, their Kundalini gets awakened, you see, your frontal lobe is also stimulated which they receive it for the higher intellectual activity. So we find that this is sahaja yoga, you see. Mother has discovered it, She is the founder of the science of sahaja yoga and I think, it is a unique yoga and the best yoga which the human mankind can have today. The drug problem, you see, which is there, can also be solved by this. You see the people are taking drug - why they take drug?

It is because of the tension, because of certain problems, emotional problem, other problems are there. So, if one starts doing it, all these things will improve. I know persons, you see, by my experience, you see that they have left smoking, they have left uh.. alcohol - persons who have been taking alcohol all their life, now they don't touch it. They say, "If I can't touch it," even if you offer them. So it's just, things can happen I think it is a wonderful thing and best for the mankind. Similarly, you see, so much as I told you earlier the Ischemic heart disease, the heart attacks - now the doctors all over the world know that it is the psychological stress which is responsible for increasing even the blood cholesterol level. Recently, you see, in the last two years people have found it out and that is the cause of the atherosclerosis. Another thing what they have found recently is that this psychological stress, emotional stress can cause spiro micro-coronary vessels and thereby can give rise to heart attack and sudden death, Mother. Now all these things can be prevented, you see, if a person is doing sahaja yoga everyday for say, about ten to fifteen minutes. So it is very nice, it is a life, I say sahaja yoga if you have a sahaja yoga lifestyle, I think you can prevent the heart diseases. So Mother, this is what I think they are. If any questions are there, more welcome to ask.

Shri Mataji:

Now, I would request Dr. Wells, who is in charge of seven hospitals in London, has, is luckily with us and he will tell you how he has cured patients with sahaja yoga, who suffered.

Brian Wells:

Shri Mataji - good afternoon ladies and gentleman, my name is Brian Wells. I'm a consultant psychiatrist in the Riverside Health Authority of London and I sub-specialize in the field of substance misuse which is problems with drugs and alcohol. I'm going to be very brief. My own experience in sahaja yoga began in 1982 and I was very skeptical, I was a very cautious Westerner who was very wary of things that were Indian and I have to say that since 1982 my own life is changed dramatically as a result of the albeit originally very gradual practice of sahaja yoga and my own health, my own career, my own well-being has improved enormously. Professionally, I work particularly with heroin addicts. I have to say that I have never seen heroin addicts improve, give up drugs and experience a well-being and a joyfulness like the people who we have in sahaja yoga, who come into sahaja yoga and they give up their drugs and experience a whole different way of living, a whole different attitude which is based on these very fundamental principles as taught by Shri Mataji.

It's not a form of treatment that is widely used in the West but it's beginning to spread. Similarly a number of people in sahaja yoga had very serious alcohol problems when they arrived. These people are now completely alcohol free, living very balanced, very normal and very spiritual lives. My own addiction to nicotine was terminated gradually as I came into sahaja yoga and I found that gradually it became unnecessary to smoke cigarettes and it became important to be healthy, to be the right weight, to be a balanced person, to be married, with children leading a normal, healthy life. My own interest in human well-being have moved beyond addiction and I've been very fortunate in being able to travel to Finland and to the United States this year largely to present the work of Dr. Deepa Chugh that has already been referred to by the professor. In Finland we presented his work at a Physiology conference which was full of very skeptical Western Scientists who were interested in atoms, molecules, enzymes and I stood up on stage and the audience thought I was a little bit crazy talking about sahaja yoga and it's affects on hypertension but as I talked it became clear that actually the results of sahaja yoga are very spectacular indeed. The people who practice sahaja yoga, after sixteen weeks were on no medication at all and their blood pressure had come down from a very high and dangerous level to a very acceptable level and the people in the audience had to notice this and came up afterwards and were impressed and as a result of their suggestions, Dr. Chugh is now publishing his work in the international medical press. A few weeks ago, I was in Boston and I presented this work again at a huge conference of American Chest and Cardio-thoracic medicine and again we stimulated a great deal of interest because as Professor mentioned a lot of people are now interested in ways of treating blood pressure, treating chest diseases with methods that do not involve the use of medication and sahaja yoga is something that's considered unusual by many Western trained doctors but the results that Dr. Chugh has achieved are indeed very spectacular and we have now a number of very eminent researchers in United States and in Europe who are interested in comparing the effects of sahaja yoga against drug treatment and against other forms of realization therapy. So from my own standpoint, sahaja yoga is the best treatment I know for addiction of all kinds whether it is addiction to drugs, to alcohol, tobacco, to food or to other forms of behaviour. It's a system of becoming balanced, - becoming healthy and becoming whole. Thank you for your attention - Thank You Shri Mataji! -

Shri Mataji:

Thank you. Now, what should we have now? Uh.. we have so many doctors here, you see - Dr. Talwar is here - aayeaga. He is from Delhi, then we have Dr. Chugh uh... we have other doctors of scientist here and we have here on this side Dr. Nigam and Dr. Baghdan who's a Russian and Dr. Spiro from England. So please come - sab log khade ho jaayein to theek hai - it's better you all stand up here, just let us see. - Aap ek, thode mein keh dijiyega. - All the doctors - All the doctors should stand up together. We have minimised their number just to make you understand that is, this is Dr. Pepe from Spain, then we have Sarah Setchell from England - come along.

There are seven doctors in England who are doing this research there in England and also there is a research going on in the Cambridge University but, by doctor, Derek Lee - he's also here. Luckily they are here so that's why I wanted to have the meeting today.

Dr.Talwar:

Shri Mataji, we have so many illuminatory sort of individuals here but we are all at Your feet in collectivity. I just like to say a couple of things - of course we have all experiences to share otherwise we would not have been in sahaja yoga If you want to see an example of essential hypertension patient in a medical person, I'm an example standing in front of you. [SHRI MATAJI LAUGHS] It's five years ago since I gave up drugs and blood pressure is quite normal. I can tell you that because no doctor spares me to take my blood pressure from time to time because they're completely enamored with the factor as how could it occur - there's no answer for it. Sometimes, Shri Mataji, when we hear people talking about blind faith, I wonder, how people can talk about blind faith when they are blind themselves. To be able to understand subtlety of life one has to have the actual experience. Unless we get the actual experience of Self-realization on our own Central Nervous System, I don't think anybody has a right to ask for any proofs because no proof can be given on equipments which are not properly functioning. Now, for that purpose, with due apology, Shri Mataji, I would like to point out because it seems to be sensationalization when individuals want individual proofs from people who have gone through the experience.

I'd like them to come forth and take the experience of Self-realization, feel the whole process on their own Central Nervous System and then, I think, they would have a right to ask for proofs, if any, is required by them. My whole family, I may tell you, we were a, shall we say, a zoo of some sort of problems. My wife was with crippling arthritis and my son suffered from severe migraine and my daughter-in-law had problems with bronchial asthma and by the Grace of Shri Mataji by the introduction of these sahaja techniques, practices, in our daily life, we have all got rid of our problems. As a clinical practitioner in Medicine, as a medical specialist, I can say one thing, there are lots of things which cannot be proved in a laboratory but which is a better proof - the person who's ailment disappears or the, or the records of a laboratory - I leave it up to you gentleman. There are so many doctors who follow, I wouldn't like to say anything more but this is just to let you have a feel that there's much more to life than what is visible in the three dimensions that we are aware. Thank you - thank You Shri Mataji!

Shri Mataji:

You could say about the Parasympathetic Nervous system also - [UNCLEAR - YOU WANT TO SAY ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID?] because, you see, it's sounding like magic to them but if you tell them what works it out - isn't it? [UNCLEAR] - [UNCLEAR -TELL THEM?]] - About the Parasympathetic?

[UNCLEAR] - Yes, you see how the Kundalini works and how it supplies this thing. Of course, you'll get the little paper to see what is actually, how it works out. You see, also uh.. you should know because it may sound like a magic to you - it's not magic, it's no magic at all. This power is within us which rises, actually rises - in some people you can even see the pulsation of the triangular bone and you actually see it, rising in it - in some people, not all of us, some people. Where there's obstruction you can see it clearly but some people just it shoots off and then you can yourself feel the cool breeze on your head, you can feel the cool breeze on your hands but everybody doesn't get it. there could be some people who don't get it. There are some people who didn't get it for, I think, say about two months, three months - but they got it ultimately - but you have to keep your mind open as any scientist has to. Just to deny something, to say there is no God, is unscientific. You have not found it out where there is God or not so keep it as a hypothesis and see for yourself if it is not there, if you have found it out it's not there, it's alright but you have not yet found so just to deny something is not is not scientific at all. So these are all scientists we have here.

Dr. Nigam is here, all of them are here and you see, how sahaja yoga - [ASIDE - AAP TAShriF RAKHIYE - [UNCLEAR]]. Now, you see, this is how I'm asking Dr. Spiro to just tell you how the Kundalini rises, passes through different centers and how it pierces through the last one here and what is the result, ultimate result of it which will tell you in short so you will know it's no magic, it's just like a sprouting of the seed - simple thing as that but as you cannot manifest that - you cannot manifest it normally unless and until you have the Mother Earth or you have the Holy Mother, I think, you can't do it - that's the only point is.

David Spiro:

[INAUDIBLE] So, in in brief the hypothesis that we have in sahaja yoga is that, at the base of the spine at the level of the Sacrum bone there is a vital energy which we call Kundalini and during the process of sahaja yoga this energy is awakened and rises. Now one doesn't have to have any special uh... depth or experience in order to know that something is happening because as Shri Mataji has just mentioned, in many cases one can actually see it with the naked eye so it's not, that's not something that one has to take on trust, is a very simple observation one can make for that for saying that something is happening which is outside of our normal physiology - it's not something that's explained by the usual physiology that we understand. Now the nervous system is divided, for the purposes of this, we can take three main divisions - the right and the left sympathetic and in the center is what, the Parasympathetic Nervous System and these three together form the Autonomic Nervous System and this Autonomic Nervous System is collected in, what in medicine we call plexuses, which in terms of yoga we call chakras which are arranged in the body and both the right and the left sympathetic contribute elements towards each of these plexuses so if, if I can just use my hands, it's like that, so the right and the left each form a plexus. Okay, thanks. So, in the normal course of, in the normal situation one is just using the two sympathetic sides, right and left, and so there's a tendency for that central part to be reduced because this activity on the left or the right and it pulls it a little bit. So in that way the plexus or the chakra, if you like, is being constricted and that means that there is less energy able to flow through the central channel. What happens in sahaja yoga is that, this process is reversed because the central channel becomes active for the first time - rather than being a potential source of energy it becomes actual and so there's the tendency is for the plexus to dilate. So, as Professor Rai has already said, through the practice of sahaja yoga the Nervous System achieves a balance allowing the vital energy of the body to express itself and in each at each level of each chakra this happens so the organs at that level are nourished and it's in this way that the diseases are cured - not that one necessarily needs to even try and cure the disease, it happens automatically. - Thank you! - Thank You, Shri Mataji!

Shri Mataji:

We have so many doctors here and now I would say that, you see this - I, I also had to study medicine to talk to them and I also read a little bit of Psychology because to talk to them I must use their terminology but all this knowledge is within yourself. We know very little about it because a very little part, a wee part of our brain is really manifesting in a human awareness, you see. When the Kundalini rises - actually we have two lobes, we don't have one lobe so there are two sides to our personality. When the Kundalini rises She enlightens the brain and then you start knowing many more things which you have never known. For example, uh.. I'll ask Karan Khurana to come. He was a very ordinary student here who went down to America and one day he just asked Me a question on Genetics. So Genetics is a very modern science but he was amazed - [UNCLEAR] tum bata do.

Karan Khurana:

Uh.. I want to share just a small glimpse of Shri Mataji's brilliant knowledge because so many people have spoken about sahaja yoga and it's brilliant effects and during the past seven years I've been a student at the University of California in San Diego and I've had a chance to attend many lectures in Biochemistry and Genetics and Immunology and at the end of, all the knowledge that is to be shared by the Professors in these brilliant Universities, they all come to the same point and they say, we cannot play the role of God so we cannot give you all the knowledge. About one year ago I was with Shri Mataji at Her home and during that time She was explaining about how various, how the knowledge is revealed and I asked Her about a question on the genetic effects and how AIDS comes about, and how on the genetic level we can go about researching on AIDS. She spoke about how Copper has an effect on AIDS and how in the body due to accumulation of copper there is a mutagenic effect specially when it accumulates in certain specific parts of the body like liver and how if the replacement of Copper takes place with a higher element like Zinc, with Platinum and with gold then that mutagenic effect will not take place. Also She spoke about enzymology and how when an enzyme interacts with a substrate it it can cleave, for example in a substrate the phosphate bond and reveals the iodine which then gives a colour effect and this is a tool that is used worldwide in diagnostic assays and diagnostic tests, is a clinical tool. She spoke about how this effect is enhanced and it is very necessary for a uh.. double positive metal ion to be present otherwise this reaction cannot take place. Scientifically we don't understand how this reaction take place by the enzymes but when she revealed this I went back to California and I had a discussion with one of the top scientists in enzymology, Dr. Muzaffar Iqbal. He is a Professor from Oxford University who has been there for twenty years and is the top authority on enzymology and when I spoke to him about this divalent cations that Shri Mataji had spoken about and how we can use this for enhancing the stability and interaction and reactions of these enzymes - he immediately did some experiments and he found that we could actually stabilize these enzymes by the effect of these divalent cations like Magnesium and Manganese and we found that at 50 degrees temperature these enzymes get stable for three days, which is an absolute revolution. These enzymes have to be stored at 2-8 degrees at all times for it to have any interaction or any stability.

Also ever since She spoke about the effects of Copper and how AIDS is related we have many scientists who have been doing research in this field and just three weeks ago I attended a lecture by Dr. Sochman, who is a leader in this field and he explained how these uh... metal ions have mutagenic effects and this is something Shri Mataji spoke about a year ago so this knowledge is definitely there with Shri Mataji and She chooses to speak about it very rarely but those moments are very uh.. very much cherished by us because this is knowledge of the future - this is Modern Science and She's had it for ever, I think.

Shri Mataji:

Thank you very much! Now, there’s another, you see, now the point he has brought it that through Sahaja yoga I can give you a, a future plan as to how to make research in what direction so I would uh.. request Dr. Worlikar who came for your scientific research uh.. conference you had and he was one of the five speakers here and he’ll tell you about what I told him about carbon atom and just how he have researched and found out. So I mean, I can give them a lead to find out what I am saying if it is true or not but one has to be – you see, these are scientists of a very high degree and high level and they have reached a point where they want to see what is beyond this and that should be there otherwise with mediocracy uh.. you cannot enter into this area, you see, you have to have that sharpness about it and this what Dr. Worlikar who has been [MARATHI]. He was one of the scientists who spoke here in your conference, one of the five scientist.

Dr.Worlikar:

Shri Mataji, ladies and gentleman – She has introduced me that I have been in United States for last eighteen years. I have done my Ph.D. from University of Bombay with a very eminent scientist called K. S. Nargun, who spent ten years while working with a Nobel Prize winner Thorpe, in London. After doing Medicinal Chemistry Ph.D in Anti-tuberculosis compounds I had an opportunity to go to United States where I did work with a scientist called Dr. H. Herbert Fox who invented Ionish as a drug for tuberculosis.

So having been exposed to good scientist and when you do Ph.D. in your life, more you study, more you realize how little you know and that’s what I, I was all the time thinking in my life is, I wanted a direct connection with All-Pervading power.

So since my childhood I did Atharvasheesha to Lord Ganesha. All the Maharashtrians – I’m Maharashtrian – since my childhood I started worshipping Lord and Aaradhya devatva was Lord Ganesha. Every time I would do Atharwasheersha I would feel everyday there is something beyond this and I was looking for some guru, who could connect me to All-Pervading power.

In 1981, Shri Mataji came to United States and I was blessed by Her. She raised my Kundalini whereby all the Deities were invoked and a different, a different life started after having realized by Her Holiness Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi, my life took a different turn and then She has blessed me with a special blessing called enlightened attention.

When you raise your Kundalini, the Divine powers of Parvati, all the deities on our chakra – there are seven chakras in our body, the last chakra is Sahasrara chakra of which She is Swamini. By doing Lord Ganesha’s worship, the chakras up to Hamsa chakra, get manifested. You get power of discretion but, once you get realized and the Kundalini is awakened, the power of Parvati awakened, integration of all the chakras takes place. They work very, very pronouncedly and the vibrations you feel in the form of cool breeze on your fontanel bone and on your hands, on your palm, indicate the existence of All- Pervading power. Now when you do meditation – a lot of doctors here mentioned to you about Sahaja yoga – what is Sahaja yoga is, is spontaneous union with All-Pervading power. Now once you raise your Kundalini to a point where my hand is up – is called Valaya – all the incarnations come up to Valaya. The human beings have to reach Incarnations at that point so there is a need for every human being to get realized, do meditations day in and day out, raise your Kundalini, get connected to All-pervading power, then you realize that guru is the pure source of knowledge.

I have read lots and lots of book in Chemistry. I was a professor of Organic Chemistry in University of Bombay, affiliated college Ramniranjan Jhunjhunwala College. I was teaching in Adarsh Science Institute, where I taught students who have failed at Inter- Science in those days and my students could become doctors and engineers after attending a one year course which were teaching in a private institution. I have taught in Agarwal’s classes for I.I.T. entrance exam where students who have stood first in S.S.C., second, used to attend a lecture and eight hundred students used to come all over India and they used to stand from Agarwal’s classes uh.. where the maximum high level education was imparted to them and from that institution thirty students, first thirty students used to be from Agarwal’s classes.

What I’m trying to tell you is, before getting realized there was a particular shape of my life, but after meeting Her I went to completion. Once you are connected to All-Pervading power – why I taught, brought this subject, I was professor of Organic Chemistry – I had a habit of reading, most of the time, books written by Nobel Prize winners. From U.C. Berkeley, Mahan’s book was, was good for Tacheometry. There’s a chapter, one chapter and I would read ten different books from foreign authors who had, one time or other, acquired Nobel Prize. I used to get thrilled and I used to, as a magnanimity of scholarship, share everything with my students and with high level students my level used to go high and I studied at a very high level electronic theory of valency, which after getting realized from Mother, I found a different dimension, that you are given things if you are having enlightened attention.

What I thought, - I don’t know, I don’t see a picture which we call Virata where all the seven chakras are presented to the audience where you can clearly visualize the seven chakras in every human body starting with Mooladhara chakra. – Now the – yes, yes correct – you have a –

[Shri Mataji, MARATHI... Mooladhara chakra .. experiment ... Carbon.. ]

Dr Worlikar:

– Yeah, yeah –

[Shri Mataji, MARATHI... Chemistry.. ]

Dr Worlikar:

– So, I was attending a guru puja in Santa Cruz and was concentrating on the Mooladhara chakra where we have four plexus to Mooladhara chakra which is considered to be Lord Ganesha’s chakra – seat for Lord Ganesha. Now what I did is, while doing meditation I was directly connected and I was given an inspiration that I should depict that chakra in three dimension. If you see the Mooladhara chakra in the, in the Virata there picture, it is only Swastika there – It is below the Kundalini – so what I did is – by the blessing of enlightened attention She had bestowed on me – we made a three dimensional structure of Carbon atom being an organic chemist and then used the electronic theory of valency to formulate the valencies of carbon atom on modern basis.

Just in one short sentence I could say that, the structure of atom was proposed by Danish Physicist Neil Bohr, who got a Nobel Prize for that. He discussed the movement of electrons which have speed of light around a nucleus and give a mathematical expression for Hydrogen spectrum as a proof, single electron atom and then he got a Nobel Prize. His theory of orbit became obsolete when we came into Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle where you cannot predict the position of a moving body. So currently we consider orbital theory – the position of any moving body cannot be predicted therefore we consider a, a area in space – space where you can locate the electron – Now I have a article – Mother asked me to put the thoughts

–

Shri Mataji:

I think his article is there –

Dr. Worlikar:

Yeah – There is a article on cosmic relation of Swastika and Om–. Now what I did is, made a tetrahedral structure of Carbon atom, put Carbon in the center and considered the latest orbital theory of movement of electron in space and in that I considered Carbon has four electrons – one in a 2s orbital which is spherical and three electrons in the dumbbell shaped orbital which is in X, Y and Z axis The 2pZ-orbital is vacant. No electron there. But in the excited state one electron from 2s goes to 2pZ and then to an ordinary person when you think ordinarily, you will find three energy levels of those three electrons should be same and one in 2s in a lower energy is different. So it bothered me as a student of Organic Chemistry that Carbon should have three equal valencies and one weak valency. That is something we could discuss somewhere else, let me just concentrate on what I did.

So we made a actual tetrahedral structure and took the advantage of modern theory of electron valency and considered orbital theory. What I found when I was putting my enlightened attention – let me tell you the significance of enlightened attention. When you raise your Kundalini and put your attention on the Kundalini, your attention gets enlightened. If you put it on any unknown thing, that thing reveals it’s true nature. So you are given things when you are connected to All-Pervading power. So I was putting my enlightened attention to this tetrahedral model of Carbon atom, just trying to see the four valencies of Carbon in space considering the orbital theory. I had a computer scientist help me, from Belgium, Johan and another Sahaja yogi from Chicago, Boston [should be Ohio, Dayton] and he made the tetrahedral structure and we, me and Johan used to sit at my house in Los Angeles and put our attention on that model trying to see Om. I would see 3 but I wouldn’t see I could, I wouldn’t see the upper residual valency [draws Arda Bindu sign in the air] and we used to put lot of enlightened attention, meditation –

Sahaja yoga practices is nothing else but every day you do meditation. Now what we found, with the enlightened attention what I found, that one of the valency was not properly done by Jay because he just made all four dumbbell shaped orbitals.

He forgot to do sp3 hybridisation where all the four uh.. sphere orbitals rearrange themselves – is called sp3 hybridisation where we call one electron in s orbit and three in p orbital. After I did that sp3 hybridisation I could clearly see the residual valency of the Om [draws Arda Bindu sign in the air] .

From the end, end view – see as a student of Technical School Robert Technical School so – I said, “Let me take a look at this model from – from the left –

Shri Mataji:

from the left – If you see from the left, right I told them you will see Aum and they saw it.

Dr.Worlikar:

– Yeah So from the left I saw Aum.

Now I said, “Let me see from the right what do I see,” and I saw Swastika. Same three dimensional figure you can see Aum from one side and Swastika from other side. – and was amazed to see that, the correlation, I call it cosmic correlation between Aum and Swastika –

Shri Mataji: [UNCLEAR – MARATHI]

Dr Worlikar:

and then I met Shri Mataji in Houston – She was visiting U.S.A. and She said, “Did you take a look at your tetrahedral model from the bottom,” and I said, “No Shri Mataji, I haven’t.” She said, “If you take a look to your tetrahedral model from the bottom, I’m sure you will see cross.” So I returned from Texas to my house in Los Angeles and to my surprise, when I took a look at the tetrahedral model, I had made, from the bottom, it, it gave cross sign – it depicted cross. So you see how they are, they are coordinated with each other.

This was possible because of enlightened attention that was bestowed on me by Shri Mataji. Now, what I have to say is Aum – as you know, Pranava, the sound of creation – is represented by, when we write it on two dimension, we write Aum. Actually, Aum is a three dimension, dimensional depiction of the sound of creation and Swastika is the two dimensional depiction of Aum. It is hard to see this difference when we write Aum and Swastika side by side on a blackboard, let us say, which we call two dimension.

So, I have been a student of science all throughout my life and I had kept open mind when She came to Los Angeles, in 1981. 1986 I was speaking on the event of Her birthday, I told everybody that you people are in India, you are lucky. You could get your realization and you will have a different dimension to your life. I had to go all the way to America to get realization.

Shri Mataji:

I would like Dr. Mishra to tell you something about the soul because there's always a challenge about soul and dead soul and this and that and whatever I told long time back how now they have discovered that it exists. I'm just trying to show you because this is a unique thing and we, as he says, that he had to go to America but only in America they will understand it, not in India - I know this.

• Why, why not in India? - You see because you have to reach that state of, I should say, of search see they have reached the la.... You see here, our, our heritage is Spirituality not Science but in America it is Science. So they have reached to the end of it, you see, sort of they have reached to the end of everything - extremes - so scientists there start looking back while ours is, we can understand it much faster because our heritage is this. Our heritage is true Spirituality but as scientists, it's only in the West they will understand because they have reached to the end of it, you see, so they want to see it much faster. Like as he said it, in Russia - Russian scientists are of a very high level. You know they have - one fellow gave Me a book on the Mathematical Calculation of Shri Chakra and he came and asked Me, then I told him about Shri Chakra and all that. He was amazed, he said, "Nobody knows this in India, how's it?" I said, "We're still uh.. running after you scientist, you see, still we are trying to work," but, you see, Science itself you know, has to be balanced uh.. with uh.. other things like Humanity because Science itself is very dry. Now, the Science also can take advantage of sahaja yoga as doctor has told you. Now what sahaja yoga has done, is to abridge the gap between the Spirituality - of the true Spirituality, the knowledge of Spirituality and the Science as they have done it.

So I would like, one more doctor to tell you, Dr. Mishra. He's, he's, I asked him to write your degree so he wrote so many so now, I don't know, he he will tell you about the soul what I said. Whatever I have said they could prove it so this is, this is something, the way they have bridged it, you see, but the kind of patience they have, the kind of respect they have - we don't have that so much about scientifically. If there's a scientist in India, he wouldn't have that much of openness - is a fact, I tell you. But we have some scientist here from India also.

Dr.Ram Mishra:

Shri Mataji and fellow colleagues, my name is Ram Mishra and I did my undergraduate medical degree in New Orleans, Louisiana, followed by a doctorate in Biochemistry at Memorial University in Canada. Currently I'm Professor of Psychiatry, Director of Neuro-psyche [UNCLEAR] pharmacology laboratory and Consultant to mental NIMH - it's National Institute of Mental Health, United States, Medical Research Council of Canada, Ontario Mental Health foundation, National Council of Canada, NCIA of United States. Now, I have been heavily engaged in research activities relating to cell membranes and the different types of the interceptors and in last four or five years it became very clear that the variety of drugs, variety of medicines - the drugs is a bad name sometimes - uh.. interact with the specific types of the receptors on the cells. For example the antihypertensive drugs interact with the beta-receptors, sulphur receptors in heart cells, asthmatic drugs interact with the beta-receptors in the lungs, the antipsychotic drugs, antischizophrenic drugs, antiparkinsonian drugs, anti-anxiety drugs, anti-huntington's chorea drugs - they all interact with the set of the receptors and when we look at the structure of the receptors - now other scientist who already got the Nobel Prize, discovered the beta-receptors structure and I was working on the dopamine receptor which interacts with the uh... neurotransmitters and the antipsychotic drugs. Now what is common in all these receptors is that, they always make a seven member membrane loop. Now the words in the membranes they organized in such a way so you always have seven loops - not eight, not nine, not six, not twelve - always have seven.

• And when I was lecturing in the class that these receptors make seven loops. [Shri Mataji: Seven loops] They organize in such a fashion that they always make seven loops. Now there are different kinds, there are one thousand different kinds of receptors but each one make a seven loop and the, obviously the M.B.B.S. students asked me the question, "Why there is seven loops, why not nine, why not eight?" and I said that has I kept quiet actually and then there was another student who said, "It has something to do with the God." So, that was the actual answer and fortunately I met Shri Mataji in London one time and had a chance to to show the diagrams and the pictures of the different types of the receptors and you can also see yourself there are several types of the receptors on this sheet from human, from bovine, from red and if you look very carefully, they always make the seven loops. If you look at the three dimensional structures or the models of - you can also see the seven rings in these receptors. Now, what is the significance of these seven rings? I think to me they look like they represent the mini chakras in each cell and especially in the heart cells they represent the soul, so after a person passes away or dies or whatever happens, these souls who represents in seven rings are released in the atmosphere and it is possible for the sahaja yogis who practice sahaja yoga, to see the unsatisfied souls in the sky and in fact when we were having a meeting in New York, in July, Shri Mataji said that, "Look those unsatisfied souls in New York city are wandering around in the sky and in fact we were able to see those like loops there. By the same token you can also see the Chaitanya, the satisfied souls - you see in the form of the Chaitanya.

Shri Mataji: Like, like uh ... you see them like commas, shining commas - Chaitanya - shining commas.

Dr. Mishra: So, that's the, that's the scientific proof. Uh.. the other thing I want to share with you is, is a follow-up experiment actually we did blindly. I didn't know Dr. Chugh before I came here and he described his M.D. thesis while I met Shri Mataji in Guru Puja in Italy and I took Her permission to do couple of experiments of my own in my own lab and didn't publish the study because it is still in the very preliminary state but I can assure you that it will be published in the - by blessings of Shri Mataji - in the first rate Scientific journal in United States. And the story is that we looked at the levels of the relaxing proteins called beta endorphins and enkephalins. Now these are the proteins which try to take your pain away, try to make you relax and do a lot of other things in the human system. And when the levels of these proteins goes down you suffer from many, many things - your blood pressure, your pain levels, your arthritis and so on so forth. Now, if you practice sahaja yogas, the levels of these Beta Endorphins and Enkephalins actually goes up. They goes up significantly compared to the other types of meditations like T.M. or Hatha yoga or whatever. Now the same question was asked to Dr. Chugh in his Ph.D. thesis by the examiners that, "Have you looked at the levels of the Beta Endorphins?" and what was your, I don't know what you replied to them that, "You haven't done it," but the, the answer was already there in our lab - see how the connections are made to find out, find out the answer for the same question! Now, we have agreed that we will measure the levels of these proteins and see ourself from Indian sahaja yogis, from European sahaja yogis, from American and Canadian and we will see in worldwide geographical distribution in all sahaja yogis the levels of these proteins goes up. I think I should stop at this point.

Shri Mataji:

Uh.. I would also request a diplomat from U.N. to talk what U.N. has to say about it because is important. We in uh.. in our country do not know what we have but the UN system itself has now accepted that Spirituality is a part and parcel of a human-being and it must be looked after and he will now tell you. This is Mr. Gregoire de Kalbermatten from - he is a Swiss diplomat. We have another Swiss diplomat here - where is she - Ruth [Flint] - just she's there sitting.

Gregoire de Kalbermatten:

Thank you very much, Shri Mataji. After all the previous speakers, I hesitate a little bit umm, I hesitate to talk because I have no expertise neither scientific nor as a matter of fact in sahaja yoga but I have been fortunate to practice sahaja yoga for about 15 years now and what Shri Mataji just mentioned is that indeed sahaja yoga has been recognized by the [UNCLEAR - staff recreational] council of the United Nation has a comprehensive meditation system which brings physical, emotional, mental benefits to staff members and is sahaja. This society is encouraging staff members to meditate according to sahaja yoga's technique but if I might be a little bit more global and more general than the conversation, the very high level presentation we have just heard now uh.. I would just like to stress that at the United Nation we are very, very concerned about the issues of global management or of Mother Earth resources and in the nineties one of the very rising issues is going to keep a balance between development and ecology between human activities and the resources which allow these activities to be sustained. You know that water is going to be a very big problem - just drinking water for the billions of people and in this respect there was a World Bank paper which was saying that, "A long term solution for mankind is only a change in consciousness so that the human-beings do not have any more the same material demand.

Shri Mataji: change in consciousness, change in awareness - they hit at that point.

Gregoire: This was a paper of the World Bank on Ecology, on the model of development which long term can allow all these human beings to survive on this planet - it's a very serious issue because if you look at the projection uh.. nobody really knows how to take care of these billions of people who are being born and the, the solution was a change in consciousness. If people can be in a state of peace, can be in a state of satisfaction their demand on the material environment automatically is going to drop because a lot of what we produce is to meet artificial need, culturally created artificial needs and the only solution to get into this condition of contented peace can be brought by a inner transformation. Now the World Bank doesn't know about sahaja yoga yet and that's why they said, "This is the only way to get out but we don't know how to bring about this transformation." So as a, as a staff member of the United Nation, I can see a very direct relevance of uh.. sahaja yoga to help us changing our attitudes if, if we are to leave our children and grandchildren a place we are to live in.

Shri Mataji:

You have also got the, you have also got meditation center for sahaja yoga in the U.N. now? -

Gregoire: Uh... we, we have this society which has been created as of January in 1990 - That's [UNCLEAR] and we hope that we start by before we talk about world peace, we hope in good logic we start becoming peaceful beings ourselves and then there'll be less fight in one floor of the United Nation and the work will be more, more carried more effectively. I forgot to present myself. My name is Gregoire de Kalbermatten and I am Chief of Policy Planning and Evaluation in United Nation Capital Development Fund which invest projects in the list of developed countries of the world. Uh... by the Grace of Shri Mataji, I, I can say from my personal experience that uh... the the practice of sahaja yoga does influence us in a, in a state of consciousness which correspond to, to the definition of the state that collectively mankind should reach in order to develop a different type of society. This is a very general remark but I suppose that it needed to be made because the managers of society today cannot address anymore the complexities of the challenge that, that are before us and we need this higher level of guidance from inside that meditation gives us and as Dr. Worlikar said it before, before me it is all a matter of enlightened attention because then the solution just present themselves before us and no, no amount of efficiency would allow us to get there uh.. where the vibrations of sahaja yoga lead us to the right solution spontaneously somehow. Shri Mataji, I think that's all. Thank You! -

Shri Mataji:

Thank you! Uh.. there's another facet which uh.. one could see, it works in sahaja yoga, is the agriculture. We haven't got Dr. Hamid just now here - he's gone away. I wish he was here because he has experimented with vibrated water. I have also shown the experiments uh... in Poona that I sowed about 60 kilos of rice in one acre of area and we got about 1400 kilos of such beautiful rice that I sent it to the University, at Phule University in Rahuri and they said they have never seen such rice. Then they came all the way to see what I was experimenting with and also the uh.. Sunflower we got was about say two, two feet at least minimum and so full of big, big seeds - I mean, they never looked like the seed of the Sunflower and you had to at least two persons had to lift it, it was so heavy. Now the, here the main thing is that we have not used uh.. hybrid seeds because if you use hybrid seeds you get a, you have to uh... take them from some organization and sort of can be a enslavement but this is non-hybrid seed, ordinary seeds. Once we vibrate them - now this is how we can increase our capacity to produce much more, much more variety of crops. Also things like olives, they said will never grow but I have, I have grown that olives, lot of olives I've grown. Then they said that tulips will not grow - I've grown them. All kinds of things that they said will never grow in Poona and they are all growing very nicely. I don't know how they just said it cannot be grown.

So all these things can be worked out. This is how a kind of a prosperity can come to our villages but we have to be pragmatic about it, we have to be serious about it and we have to help our poor people here. Another problem that always comes up with is, I think, some of the doctors are little upset thinking that if sahaja yoga comes up what will happen to their practice, so already, I've already told them that I'm not going to work for the rich people I don't want to work for rich people. They can have the rich people to themselves - I want to work for poor people. In our country people don't even have sufficient food to eat, they don't - how will they go for treatment or anything but through sahaja yoga en masse we work it out, en masse. Even if there are thousand people in a group or even ten thousand people, most of them will be benefitted by Kundalini awakening so why not we try to help the poor who don't have any money and as a saint, I think, every saint has only concern for the people who are suffering and who are poor, who are downtrodden. You see, the interest is not in the rich people at all is, interest is more in the people who need help and this is the help of, I should say, God Almighty because this is the power of God which is All-pervading, which is very subtle and which starts working through you. Once you are connected, just like you are connected - this instrument is connected to the mains, it starts working, in the same way you start working. And I would say that the doctors here should also, as other doctors have done it, should come round and see for themselves and we have some, as I told you, some Indian doctors working it out in Delhi also we can do it in Bombay - we can help the poor people uh.. and it will be such a great punya for us to help them because this country, you see, I mean, uh.. I don't know, I'm bit too sensitive with, I see this poverty, I just can't even enjoy My sahaja yoga because I feel when will they get all these things, they have to have it and if we are concerned about these things, we don't run after superficial things.

Of course I agree that there have been false gurus - I agree that and I would like one person to talk to you about T.M. who was the head of the T.M. in Scotland and who was completely finished with it so he is here - I've cured many people from T.M., many people from T.M. We have one person here from T.M. and uh.. also from Rajneesh - they'll tell you what harm they have done. It's better to see because there is falsehood. There is truth and there is falsehood but truth can be understood very easily if you know what a saint should be. The saint has no interest in your money, in your position, in anything; His interest is only in awakening your Kundalini and taking you to God, that's all - other interests are not there. So, you see, this is what one should judge any saint of. You don't know how much these people have gone there and brought such bad name to us specially this Rajneesh has just said one word the whole lecture was going on, so many things were given to read, in Poona and they just uh.. caught hold of one word, they asked Me, "What about Rajneesh?" I just said, "She's bilander," I should have said much more.

I just said, "He's bilander," so they caught hold of that word and the whole thing started working on that only point that he's - are we that level that we are mouthpiece of such a man who was thrown out of every country? If you want to hear about him, I'll ask somebody to talk about him. Horrible, he was arrested and people hate him , in Russia they call him Rasputin. Such a man who's all the time uh.. changing himself - he thinks he's wise, I think, he's the he's the most dangerous man you could have. And now his ideas - he wants to insult Ganesha. Now I must tell you, without Ganapati we cannot cure many diseases because Ganesha is on the Mooladhara - we cannot cure There are all these doctors they never knew Ganapati, they didn't know what was Ganapati's 'Ga' was but I told them this is Ganapati, you have to worship if you want to cure. Even cancer cannot be cured unless we take the help of Ganapati - It's such a pure deity. But this gentleman started saying that , "Ganapati comes from the word 'ganika'." This is his own ideas - you see, such a perverted brain! It comes from the word 'Gana'.

'Gana' means, in our medical terminology we can say antibodies - they are antibodies and this is called as smirksing. Americans have started a thing called smirks. So these are the antibodies and these Ganas are very important - without the antibodies we cannot fight any disease. Now how to excite them - you have to take the name of the Goddess for this. You see, all these things are, look so fantastic but, you see, you don't know our, our heritage is fantastic, tremendous; We have no ideas to what we are! And if somebody tries to say something these are all half-baked scientists, half-baked people who don't know much about it, just try to push you down and you have, must have heard they stoned us. Eighty foreigners were hurt by their stoning. They just put us into such a trap and they tortured our lives. I mean we, we are very peaceful people, uh.. we didn't do anything. We were about, that time,1200 people, they were only 12 people - these Nirmoolan people.

Anybody, anybody in that place would have really thrashed them but I said, "Nothing doing, you sit down," and everybody got hurt but 18 were very badly hurt and some of them got uh.. fractures of the ribs even. but nobody stirred out, nobody said anything and the newspapers, I'm surprised, gave absolutely, absolutely the opposite. I just don't know and one newspaper correspondent - now you just think of it - what a level we should be in India where we have such a great heritage! He brought a paper from this 'Andhashraddha Nirmoolan' - there're hardly some 12 people some students something like that - he brought and gave it to Me. I was surprised how could a newspaper man give Me that! Now they try to play tricks and - now we have given everything so you better go through it and see for yourself how it was just like a mafia of police. and how they tortured us and what these foreigners are going to speak about us when they go there? They're going to go to their embassies, no doubt; We have lots of journalists here, of a very high repute, it's all going to be there that there's a mafia going on in Maharashtra state - is a fact. The way they managed the whole thing is so surprising - I cannot imagine! We have done no wrong to anyone.

They have no right to disturb us, not disturb but to hit us like this for nothing at all - what wrong have we done? I have been to so many countries, I must say. I have been to Turkey - we have a representative now; Turkey is a Islamic country but the police themselves gave us a number, a code number - they respected us. Anywhere I go I have never seen such things happening. Especially in Russia - we have representatives from Russia here sitting. They come all the way to know how I can help their children. What about people who are living here? Are they not going to use Me; I'm your own - am I not? They're not going to use My powers or they're not going to use My knowledge. When these people are using My knowledge in scientific field, in medical field, in other fields, even in agricultural field - are we just going to get after every person, superficially looking at every person?

Of course I'm a simple woman, I do not have all these ostentations of a big sadhu baba or something like that, I'm a housewife and I'm a simple woman but that doesn't mean that everything that I say is false; You have to - I, I would request media to now rise up. You see, at the time when it was 1942, I was a very young woman and we did fight the British that time the newspapers were of such a level, I mean, it's a legend, I tell you, it's a legend; They would never support anybody so destructive. There were hardly twelve people uh.. standing there and shouting and disturbing - every newspaper had their photographs. Yesterday at the, here at the Secretariat there were 1200 people standing silently, such silence, such serenity and such uh..dignity! You would never find such people together. My husband says, "They're angels, You've found all the angels of the world." And this is what everybody has to become. We have to transform this world - think of your children what are they going to get? We have to transform them, you have to give them sense of security and we have to give them a beautiful uh.. Kingdom of God, as I call it. So just to deny God is very arrogant, I think.

Even the greatest scientist like Einstein would not deny that, Newton would not deny that. Who are these scientist here, what discoveries have they made? I mean, it's such a small-mindedness, it's a such a short-sightedness but what we have great, is our saints. They're great saints and they have given so many things to us and thanks to them that I'm working because what they have done, what they have uh.. produced that I could reach all the villagers and all the people. Actually in the villages Indians live, I tell you. They're so simple, so sweet and the way they receive Me, the way they get realization, the way they have improved their agriculture and everything is wonderful to see them. And My work is more in the villages because I must say, from My childhood I've been very much concerned about this great country because this is a yoga bhumi this is not an ordinary country, you don't know. We have got the Adhyatma with us, we have got the greatest nourishing treasures with us. And all these Western countries, which are now suffering because of a one-sided development of science and all that - we have to nourish them, we have to. You see, these people are all - there are some people from very high officials from uh.. - what's your company, from - IBM - IBM and we have people from other big companies here - haan, there's another one from uh... annh uh... Olivetti - we have big people here.

Then we have one Dr. Khan, who is a very well known uh.. scientist from uh.. Calcutta and all these people are here, so many people are here whom we can point out. There are big business people here all of them are here and we have people who have been cured of blood cancer also - they were declared to be dead. In Poona these people spoke, nobody bothered. What they were - aa jao idhar aa jao. This is a architect; We have two architects who were declared to be dead within eight days - they were cured of sahaja yoga - they are here. See now [ALL CLAP] So all these they spoke and there was, Mr. Malhotra also told about his angina but the Poona newspapers, I don't know, they have become, just their level is the mouthpiece of this Rajneesh and the whole this all - if you see these people who talk of "There's no God and all this is humbug and this and that," are nothing but the ideas of Mr. Rajneesh. He's penetrating them into our intellectuals and this people and that people and they are accepting it - is a very dangerous thing and it is coming even into the people who are supposed to be our leaders. It's a very dangerous thing and he's thrown out from every country. In Greece he was not even allowed to stay there. I mean, the less said the better. We have people who can talk about it.

Now, I would like you to know about TM, how dangerous it is but nobody has attacked here. Can you tell Peter Pearce? This is Mr. Peter Pearce. He was a diamond merchant and what Mr. TM did to him.

Peter Pearce: [1hr 24m]

Shri Mataji, ladies and gentleman, my name is Peter Pearce, for from 1970 I got initiated into TM. It cost money. 1972 I became a teacher of Transcendental Meditation where I met Maharishi and from that time onwards - somehow I became one of the leaders, international leaders of Transcendental meditation. - He just mesmerised them absolutely. Through, as Mother says, a mesmerisation process of learning mantras, of teaching mantras in simplistic forms of 'inga', 'aina', 'aima', 'ainga' we entrapped thousands of individuals In 1976 I went on another course costing something like twelve thousand pounds.

I then purchased a place in Scotland for the movement which belonged to myself and my wife and over a period of three years they were indebted to me for the tune of a quarter of a million pounds of fees never paid, always promised and while I was teaching these people a number of them eventually landed up in mental institutes. One particularly known pop star's wife, we with the Grace of Mother, eventually had to get after the mental institute where some teacher has said, "Your abstract uh.. experiences are beyond me, I think you better go and see a psychiatrist." On seeing the psychiatrist, he did one thing and that was putting him, put her in a mental institute. Gradually, my wife and myself became non-communicative - unable to relate to the outside what we termed as the outside world - became more and more inward bound. My wife went into long periods - of, what could be called - A new type of epilepsy - Catatonia - [UNCLEAR] - for anything upto twelve hours she would sit in a corner - and scream and shout - horrible! Umm, in 1979, early in 1979 at the absolute wit's end, I didn't know which way to turn. I eventually decided that it was the end. I took the movement to court over the monies owed to us. Unfortunately uh.. the liquidates of the company - because when you close down a company in Scotland, you have to liquidate it they haven't to choose the international, transcendental meditation's international orders and I told them that at the time that this happened to be a conflict of interest and I said we're not like that here, we're different it doesn't matter, we're dealing with a different case. I said, "Fine," anyways nothing to do with you, it's in the hand of the liquidators, it's in the hands of the courts.

• Every money, you see, - We went to court - went to people with money. The High Court judge said, "Stop wasting Mr. Pears' money and go outside and decide on how you're going to pay it back." Outside, they wondered whether they were going to jeopardise a 150 million dollar a year business, as transcendental meditation is or was in those days, infinitely more today or to pay me 320 thousand pounds, as was owed and they decided, for their own skins, to drop the case. They went back in again and said, "We have just dropped the case," and that was the end of it and I lost 320 thousand pounds then. And not many people, especially myself could take, are not like that. Linda was unbelievably uh.. defected. We happened to meet a very well known Neuro-physiologist in London from St.Thomas' and he was interested in doing experiments on us and with another smaller group of meditators who had done these obscure techniques of hopping around like a frog on the ground umm, he eventually has a look at the uh.. brain waves patterns and he said, "You know, these are those of an epileptic." And here was the movement he was thinking that these brain waves patterns showed the correlation of integration and they purport to be scientists, you know have all the scientific data, showing how good it was and so on and so forth and here is a well-known Physiologist saying the complete opposite. And by the Grace of another friend of mine I happened to meet Shri Mataji and in a very short time we were cured. Shri Mataji had me stay with Her for six months and never once that I spent or have to spend never once did I - because we can all, all sahaja yogis can give realization to people.

Never once did we have to pay one penny. [CLAPPING] And you know a quarter of a million in 1979 was a lot of money and we couldn't believe and none of the others, who we managed to drag out of Transcendental meditation, could believe, here we had something which was tangible, something we could actually feel - not only could we feel ourselves but we could feel those around us, we could feel their chakras. Transcendental meditation is nothing. You can't feel a thing - all you can feel is your gradual inward, recluse type attitude and with the blessings of Mother and with you people writing the facts in your newspapers maybe we can rescue many, many more people in India. Thank You, Mother! [CLAPPING] Uh.. I must say that uh.. so many are really lost, I tell you, in a very bad shape, I mean, I used to really weep seeing that they have become absolutely like mental cases and in a very bad shape. Also Rajnish's things are just the same. Uh... we have had experiences of Rajnish's people coming to My program and Yogi Mahajan was quite sort of sympathetic about them. He told Me, "There are three Rajnish's people who are very much uh.. in trouble Mother, should I bring them to the program?"

I said, "Please don't. You can bring them home but not there. It'll be dangerous." And he just brought them because they forced him and they brought them. And they were about 100 ft away from Me. As soon as they saw Me they just fell like, fell down and became just like stones, just like stones. Nobody could lift them they were so heavy. I mean, they had to really like move the stones outside and it was terrible. Then some people went to, there's an ashram he has got in Dharamshala - they said, "We want to have a kind of a, sort of a cure for our uh.. troubles and all." He said, "No, no you better go to Shri Mataji.

I will not allow you to come to this place." So they said, "Why not?" So they - he said, "Alright, you come along," and he said, "You put your hands towards Shri Mataji." They started shaking, the whole body started shaking - then I left. But then of course, I mean, you know as it is I'm too compassionate for all this, I feel so terrible. We had - have you got Robert here also [UNCLEAR] - did he come? Haan We have two persons from where - this is Robert, who suffered a lot and the sahaja yogis objected he's coming to our ashram so I stayed in the ashram Myself, kept him there, looked after him and he got completely cured of such bad [UNCLEAR]. He would have been finished by now in the lunatic asylum or something. Not only that but now you got what degree? - Now [INAUDIBLE] - What degree you have got?

[UNCLEAR] It is by the Grace of Shri Mataji that I am standing here, as She told and also that I have achieved last year the degree of Art History, that means not a doctor yet - maybe once it will happen by Mother's Grace but before doctor I don't know how this is called in English doctor [UNCLEAR]. I've been doing this study [UNCLEAR] in Belgium from 1982 on. In 1981 I received my realization from Her. I met Shri Mataji luckily in Paris because I was hopelessly seeking there the Truth and actually I was be-fooled by this Rajnish because with his books on the markets, which he writes for making money of course and also he uh.. abuses the [UNCLEAR - AFFECTED?] seekers - ones who have overcome their problems. He doesn't give the solution by effect, like Shri Mataji does, the effect of realization but he first writes these books so that these get sold, then little by little he gives programs or therapies for which has to be paid a lot like, one of the therapies is they call re-birthing and for this you have to pay 30$ per hour and this is a kind of injection of oxygen which you put in your lungs, you breathe during an hour in an unnatural way. This gives a very funny affect your muscles uh.. and it gives a kind of a purification, maybe, because of the oxygen which burns away problems but it not a lasting curing - the problems come back which means you have to come back to this center to get this therapy again so it gives you an enslavement to this therapy and you pay everytime these 30$. So, I was a student, I had very little money but I lost even what I had uh.. with these techniques - sorry. Other things, horrible things which, which this Rajnish teaches is the called the Kundalini dance. Mother please forgive me but this is a terrible dance and they jump and shout like dogs and fall on their heels - you have to jump.

And can you imagine, if you look out on the chart which you have on your papers, you see that the heel is the Mooladhara chakra so he shocks the whole body through this method and he makes a big [UNCLEAR] out of it so that you don't feel the subtleties any more of the real uh... later on of the real Kundalini. Actually years later you still can suffer from these shocks you have experienced in your body, like headaches - or tensions - Very much - in the chakras and and there are actually, Shri Mataji told that there are very few persons who overcame this. - It's true. - this - Rahnish's people I could not cure many. You see, they're so absolutely doomed doomed people, you cannot and he himself is suffering now so much and they say he's so wise this, that - I just don't know what sort of a wisdom is this, what sort of. He reads books, you see, he has lots of books - those who have not uh.. people who are not well read can easily see these are, this is he has taken from this book, that book but he just publishes it that's how he has published books and he has made money but the worst part is that the way he has made these people suffer, the way he has made them suffer but not one, so many of them and you'll be surprised, his name is so bad everywhere, I mean, now there's one thing we have got for him which you could not got say anywhere, the special one I've arranged in this private place, for you to see a film which was done by an Englishman who came here and he made a hole and took all these photographs of his mass sex act - of course, I don't want to see it because once I saw, I vomited for eight days so the what he has done and how he has ruined people for going to this he used to charge five hundred rupees, for going to this nonsensical things. Even those who have not gone to this, have been too much affected - this is what he started but then the AIDS came in so the AIDS came in and his disciples started getting AIDS so he changed over. He's done all kinds of tricks, all kinds of things and all the manipulations and everything and that's what is now coming into our uh.. people who are our leaders - it's coming into them, they're, they're taking from them. He's teaching them all these ways and methods of these things. and I don't know, there was a case I heard about that there was a case [UNCLEAR] that he has taken away this land from somebody and it land doesn't belong to him but the whole case was suppressed then, completely suppressed - I just don't understand.

It's like a, you just don't understand how such things can happen? Because I have lived now in U.K. and any other countries of the, I mean, such horrible things do not happen like this - anybody cannot get on with every sort of a nonsense that's why he's here, I think, otherwise he cannot exist in any other country. Illegal things, so many illegal things they're done. In our case, especially I would say, they were first shouting, alright. Then they said all kinds of things against Me. Now to hear something against your Mother, is very difficult. If you abuse somebody's Mother - but I told them not to get irritated, not to get angry. Then they disturbed us - is illegal to disturb any meeting. You can shout when there's no meeting but when I started the police was just standing there, doing nothing. Then we went to, they wrote to Me another letter saying that, "Alright, we, we would like You to tell us about sahaja yoga and we'll try to uh.. help You and we'll of course add to Your success and to Your uh... [UNCLEAR] annh.. fame, to Your fame.

They wrote a letter to Me signed, you know and we took it for granted. When we went to Satara they had called the, they had called the police and there were people shouting again all kinds of dirty things against Me, all kinds of - it was unbearable. You see, Indians and the foreigners when they heard the meaning, they all were boiling with temper. I said, "Alright, doesn't matter you can later on have a kind of a vidarshan or something, you can take out your temper there but just now you bear it." Now after that we had to tell the police that two and a half hours we could not start our meeting that you ask them to stop now. So otherwise it's illegal then the police stopped but in this place Sangapur it was so horrible that no police came. We had told them that you have to come here - no police came, nobody came and they left us in the lurch and they put us into a, a kind of a compound, behind was a bus depot. And these people came from behind and took some ladders from the timber mart and put them - it's really a mafia, I tell you and started throwing stones indiscriminately. Two boys were hit by - [UNCLEAR] I didn't see them hitting these two persons - was one Dr. Dabolkar and other fellow Mr. Pangi. They hit him and they gave, sort of, signals to them The other people started shouting from there in the dark so these boys went that side to see who is shouting.

They hit them so hard. Somebody got hurt here - all of them are foreigners who got very badly hurt, eighteen of them. - Where it happened? - Annh? Angapur. Now you know where is Angapur - Angapur? Angapur. You see, it is, it is from Satapur, Satara far away - it's a very remote place. Angapur why I go because Shri Ramadasa formed the statue of Shri Rama and Sita and also of Anglai devi so it's a very, very powerful place so I went there and we were having - I've been there going for six years and the Ramasthas, poor things, were involved and the newspaper, I gave absolutely a wrong information. When these people went to the police station, you'll be surprised, the Sakar people rang up at 10:30 in the night to find out if - in Marathi was [MARATHI] Then he told the right thing, "No it was much worse, they were hit and they put the stones and all that."

But in paper just the opposite - I just don't know how can they do it? And they went to the police later on to put their uh..case and police said, "Have you got any injuries?" They said, "No, no not much but you see, this they beat us." All wrong, absolutely wrong but you'll be surprised there was a Doordarshan man with them who came and he jumped on the stage. Can you imagine, this is a mafia stuff. I was about to speak, he jumps on the stage and he says, "Mataji, I must have your interview." I said, "But this not the time. You were to come at 6 0'clock why have you come now, I have to speak now." "No, no you must give." Imagine a Doordarshan man is a government servant, why should he and why should Doordarshan be there, I can't understand ?

No policeman only Doordarshan man. And this vaartahaar, the correspondent from there, he was there but he ran away and this one Mr. Pange, who was a Jila something, Sahakari Bank something, so he had thrown the stones so they brought him to the stage I said, "I agree, he has thrown the stones," and here it hurt a boy and it gave him a fracture, he started bleeding, we had to send him to the hospital - still it is to be operated on and something has to be done. Now, when they brought him, you see, I was very quiet and I said, "Now have peace, we have to show we are peaceful people. Peace itself has power, now don't shout, don't beat anyone, don't do anything." They brought him there and I said, "Now you take him to the police station. I will not allow you to touch him even on anything, you just take him." So what they said, "They tied it up us and all," - how can we lie so much in this country. I mean, lies of the worst type, I can tell you. How can we do it? I understand newspaper has to give both the sides but this is just lie and this Sakaar paper has been telling always lies against Me.

This I built a house, I didn't know that they had intention of having a buildings there - they wanted to have buildings for the builders you see, as if they've become agents of builders. So these people got after Me, I didn't know that this land belonged to them or anything I just built My own farmhouse because I'm interested in farming so they got after Me and they got a proper nine people's arrangement made from Collector, Commissioner and even the judge who had, District judge who had retired so they put an ad hoc judge there and passed an ex-party demolition of My house My husband's hard earned money - ex-party and luckily I came here to, to Bombay next day and the judge said, "How can it be?" You were so status quo and gave Me a state order and he squashed the whole thing. He said, "You're so illegal. She has taken permissions from Gram Panchayat, from everyone, She has got everything, map and everything intact. And My husband has got doctorate from India and also from England in law and I showed him. And he, they said, "How could you do these things?" And this is what Sakaar paper did was to write. Then of course our sahaja yogis could not bear it so they wrote to the Press that the way they wrote all nonsensical things about, you see, alleging Me that I'm doing all illegal things so the Press Council was very nice and they sent Me a message that, "We have decided that You can ask these people to give You a public apology and whatever You write they have to publish." But you know I'm very forgiving, I said , "Forget it now what's there to apologise - whatever is done, is done," but they're again back in the seat.

I don't know what's wrong with this Prataprao Pawar also, why is he, why is he - I mean, just as if, you see, they have become like uh... Lords of the whole world, they survey - they can do what they like and beating these foreigners - they are now going to go to their embassies and going to go to the whole world - the way they have behaved. It is nowhere done like this. and they're supporting this Andhashradha Nirmoolan Samiti. I've got the name of Prataprao Pawar on nthe committee there. I mean, this is even worse than mafia. I've been to Sicily, I've been to all places - I've never seen such a thing happening. And the police, you know, the police was so cunning at 9 0'clock they came and this policeman says that, "Now you uh.. finish your meeting." I said, "Meeting is already finished but I can't take them out because they are there and they will just trouble these people so we will first of all see that these people go away." He said, "Alright, they have gone." I couldn't take him because I knew they were all very mischievous people so I asked one gentleman Dayal to go and see for himself.

He came back, he was hit here, he had a big lump on his, they had beaten him up here and his nose was bleeding. I said, "What is this, how can I send this foreigners by that road where people are beaten up?" So, he said, "No, no they are gone." I said, "Nothing doing, you remove them other wise I will never allow these people to go." Then I sent some other people to see. Till 12:30 we were there, in the night - imagine - just sitting there -we couldn't move. Then they told that have put already the stones on the road and they're going to stop the buses and they're going to hit these people. Same with this Vigyan Prabodhini, supposed to be nonsensical thing like that. You see, this Icchal Karanji place we went to long time back about '80 - '81 and they were alright when I was talking and suddenly when these foreigners were getting into the bus they took hockey sticks and big, big sticks started hitting them. They all got so badly hurt but that time, I must say, Shankara Chauhan was there and I went and talked to Sidhu and Sidhu immediately ordered an enquiry and he really took them to task - but that's a different thing.

This I can't understand what's happening? If this kind of a, I mean, we have security no body can move. In a place like Gangapur, to reach there itself is difficult and this Doordarshan fellow was there. and he jumped on the stage. Why, what right has he got to ask Me, just tell Me? I mean, you may be newspaper people, alright, but everybody has their own limitations, isn't it? You cannot jump on the stage and ask Me questions at that time. And the Vaartahaar himself gave Me the papers from these people. I mean, just I can't imagine! Isn't it a shameful thing that the foreigners were here - they are saintly people and very badly hurt, very badly hurt.. - Tell us something about sahaja yoga - Annh?

• when it started, how it started? - Alright. Sahaja yoga, as he has told you, is, is this is not a new thing. Sahaja yoga has been used since long in this country - it's our heritage, has been used. Sahaja, 'Sa' is with, 'Ja' is born with you and it is something uh.. which has been already used by our saints but very few people got realization, very few people got realization and then it so happened that when, I mean, when I was born I knew I had to do this work of Collective uh.. Realization - I had to work it out and My father himself was a very saintly person and a very sacrificing person; My mother was also and they wanted Me to find out the ways and method how I would achieve a saamoohik chetna uh... for the people because that is - you see, they were also very concerned about the people. They sacrificed all their life for Congress and this and, I mean, I also, as they told you, I, I've also suffered a lot. They gave Me electric shocks and all that - doesn't matter - but after that all that when Gandhiji was there also Gandhiji knew all about it and if Gandhiji had lived he would have supported Me - he would definitely have supported Me - mean, he was a realized soul, Shastriji was also a realized soul. He used to respect Me so much that even when he was a Prime Minister if I came to know, he came to know I was there, he would invite Me. My husband was his secretary, alright but to respect Me so much, he would even come to the, come to the uh... My car and open the door for Me and saw that - I mean it's so humble towards Me because he knew that I had this power in Me. He was after Me that I should take to Congress and this and that but I was just waiting to find out a way by which I could break this seventh chakra and all and I was studying in My own subtle ways the problems of human-beings why they don't get realization.

There are problems in these chakras these permutations and combinations and in that study and all that, I found, that I'm just about to finish it off and I went to many saints, real saints also, to artificial saints and to people like this. I went to even the Muktanand I went to, I went to Rajnish and to all those people to find out but Rajnish himself is something surprising that first time I met him in Jabalpur because he knew My niece and he said that, "Your aunt has come, I would like to meet Her," because My husband was a big man those days so, maybe, he wanted to meet Me or whatever it is but as soon as he saw Me, he stretched himself before Me - My brother was also with Me and said, "You are Adishakti, You are Adishakti," so I put up a show I said, "What is You Adishakti, I don't know - what is this, what are you talking about?" He said, "You don't know anything about this?" I said, "No, no I don't know anything." So he wanted to get something done, you see, from Shastriji. I said, "Nothing doing, I'm sorry, I'm no good for all these things. If you want, you can take an appointment with Shastriji." Shastriji never gave an appointment, "Mera dimaag kharaab hai?" he used to say like that. So it happened.

Then when I came to Bombay again he got after Me. We had an Impala car from Shipping Corporation and wanted to buy that. His attention was only on money or this. He was saying - I had a kada with Me. "Why don't You give me this kada?" I said, "Why, this is given to Me by My family people, why do you want to have? You are a man what will you do with the kada?" He said, "I'll make money out of it." "But why do you want to make money, you are a sadhu, you are a sanyasi?" I couldn't understand him throughout.

Then he said, "No, no but I'm doing lot of work You don't know and You must come and see Me this." One day he asked Me to go to his lecture and he was, I mean, he used to telephone Me too much so My husband said, "It is so much better go what is the harm after all." Went there to his lecture so he said, "You sit on the dais." In the presence of everybody if somebody goes on saying, "Sit on the dais," so I said, "Alright," I went and sat. Immediately somebody took My photograph. It's a blackmailing system you know, he took My photograph. Then we went to, he said, "You come to Nargol," and he telephoned to Me so many times - My husband said, "I have a friend there nearby, You go and stay there after all You can go and see this man what he's doing after all he's saying, maybe, there is some truth in it." I said, "Alright baba." Now My husband I didn't know what to tell him about this man that I didn't think much of him. Then I went there.

I went and I saw the way he was mesmerizing people. They were all fainting, rolling on the... I was so disgusted with them. that was on the 4th of May 1970 - the 5th of May this I broke this seventh chakra - that's the thing I broke. He doesn't know a word about Kundalini, he doesn't know anything, anything. He doesn't know any medical, he doesn't know any science, he doesn't know about our Indian music, he doesn't know about Western music - he is a, he's not at all knowledgeable, not at all knowledgeable. He eats like a glutton - I saw him eating, I said, "Baba what is this? Some rakshasa eating food like that." I'm telling you the truth, you see, and then he got diabetes, this, that; He's ten years younger to Me and he is now lying sick. He is a uh... thrown out of all these places.

Now explanation he's very good at giving. He says because of Pope he was thrown out - not at all because America doesn't follow Pope; They're all Protestant countries who threw him out. He didn't go to any uh.. South American countries where I go and I talk about the wrongs of Christianity, wrongs of Hinduism, wrongs of all the religions, of the Islam and everything and I tell them that what is written in the Bible, what is written in the ... Koran also they have described sahaja yoga. They have said it that, "At the time of resurrection your hands will speak." Clearly it is said. So, you see, if you talk to these people, if they're not fundamentalists, they listen to you and it works otherwise how can I work in Turkey and places like that. And we have in Algeria so many scientist, aeronautical engineers - so many people there. So it's such a unique thing you have got. Now, I would request you to put forward these things for people Actually there was no need also for Me to advertise because, you will see that wherever I go I - in Delhi there are at least 10000 people, in NOIDA there were 14000 people, in the villages they come from all over. Even for this thing, poor things, had come on their bullock-carts and all that and everybody was hit, everyone was hit because there were about 400 stones - they threw such big, big stones and the stones were there already.

They had everything nicely done because they had these ladders and they had those stones for the road building and they threw them. - Do You have any guru [UNCLEAR]? - I have no guru. There is no guru needed for Me. You see, I was born like this Everybody - a guru's guru's guru who will be? It's like that. So, you see, I'm an ancient person and to know Me it's better that you come to sahaja yoga and then you know Me because, see now, Christ said, "I'm the Son, I'm the only Son of God," - it's a fact. Actually Christ is the incarnation of Ganesha - we can prove it, we can prove all these things on vibration. If you get your realization, we can prove everything. We can prove the existence of God, we can prove the existence of what we're saying - everything that I say we can prove it on vibrations.

Supposing I say the truth, then you start getting the cool breeze much more but if there's something, somebody's a false guru, false man, you put your hand it'll start burning. You diagnose only on your finger-tips, on your finger-tips you can diagnose and that's how all these, after all these are all such highly qualified doctors and things and scientists. They themselves have experienced and they are experimenting and also to say that I take money and - there's no need because My husband earns quite a lot and by God's Grace he's a very generous man and he feels that I'm doing a very good work so he's helping Me. But one side are these false gurus and the people who suffer from Andhashraddha where I tell them that don't God, they say that Devi comes in the body - I say, "No, nothing of the kind," so they're on one side, another side are these people. I just don't know. In India it's this problem - nowhere How can Russians - imagine? There was no religion for Russians so far - isn't it? They had no religion but imagine how they jumped into sahaja yoga! - You don't have any center in Bombay? - We have so many - In Bombay?

• Oh! so many. - [MARATHI] [SHRI MATAJI SPEAKS IN MARATHI] Now, you must sometimes put the positive side and such a hope for young people, such a hope for our children! - You must see the utility of this. You see this I, we are not politicians, we have nothing to do with politics. - Where we can see this sahaja yoga? Haan, we centers at Dadar on every Thursday at 6:30, Saane Guruji Vidyalaya behind Catering College, we are there and we would all invite you there, please come there. That's our main center. You go and see, you go and see and get your realization. Unless and until you get your realization - We are having at Bhartiya Vidya Bhawan - You see, like this television is here - unless and until you put to the mains it doesn't work so you don't have to pay anything, nothing will go wrong with you on the contrary if you have any problems, they'll be solved so why not take to your realization - this is your own.

You see, just like one enlightened light can enlighten you. We have a, we have a correspondent who came with a skeptical mind - he got realization, he's alright now. [INAUDIBLE] They can give realization, you can give realization. Now I don't do it, you see, I don't cure people. but these people are demanding, "You must show us, You must give us proof." What right have they got? Alright, I said, " Alright, I will show you, I will do it." I did promise everything but this is not the way - now they will not allow Me to touch them. Yeh to khonchipana hai na? And the police plays into their hands, the police, the entire - even doctor, you'll be surprised, they would not give us the certificate of the doctor there.

Three days they had to struggle. Then I took them to Kolhapur and Kolhapur, the Mission hospital was shocked at the condition and they gave all the certificates to us. Everybody is [UNCLEAR - GLABBING?] hand and two people have been demoted - one in [UNCLEAR - FUNDARAIYA?] school, another one they have been demoted and police is after these people, who are innocent people. They're with Me throughout. - What is this going on? - Why You have selected Satara? - Annh? - Are You a selected Satara?

No, you see, Satara we have - actually on our way to Brahmapuri we went to Satara. We've been there for the last seven years to Satara and in that place we have been because it's a Ramdasa's place you know that very well; It's a specially blessed place and Satara people are very nice that way and they showed us also this Mallakhamb, Leghim, everything - they respected us very well always. So this time these were only 16 or 17 people only and at Angapur they were, they were saying so that there were 12 people and 4 or 5 were standing outside with a three cars. One was a Maruti, another one was a Ambassador and one was some jeep, some sort of a thing. I mean this is this is called as Andhashraddha Nirmulan? I am the one who has been talking about it since the year 1970. I've told them, "This is andhashraddha you cannot do it, this is andhashraddha, this is, what is Swayambhu what is not Swayambhu. Even about Christianity I told them what is andhashraddha. I told about Paul so many things against him and when the Archbishop of Canterbury's advisor was in My program and I said everything very clearly, at that day I don't know why he was there and I said it against Paul, the way he has spoiled Christianity and he was shocked but nobody did this to Me, nobody did this to Me. Moreover, you see, now we are recognised as a religion, as a Federal religion, in America as a Federal religion.

Then also we are recognised in, uh.. in Russia as an independent organisation. In Italy they wrote a book about Me saying, calling Me 'The Person of The Year' and they sent their people for televising and they must have televised the whole thing - they were with us. The government sent it. Of course, I don't expect this government - but this is not the way to get after us - for what? and if this kind of thing is going to work, you see, this is Rajnish style work - it's all manipulation. He did the same style of things in that Rajnishpuram. If you want to know some Americans can tell you all details about but, I think, I would go away now you better see this film This is a very unique film which was purchased by Mr. Rajnish and he's not allowed to show in any public place that's why we arranged this place but you better have a look. I better go away I can't bear it, it's too much, it's too much of it! My sensitivity... Have you all seen it or not? Hain, dekha?

Put yourself into bandhan and see. I don't know, I better go - Mere bas ka nahin. - [UNCLEAR] Mataji, tell us something about ... - About what? - [UNCLEAR] U.N. - U.N.? - United Nations Organisation - Kya bataein? Nahin, uspe ek Mera - [UNCLEAR] Nahin, Maine ek, I've, I gave a lecture which was relayed in Australia about para-modernism, about para-modernism how by the recession, by the, by the behaviour of the Russian policy, that we are now, we are now finished, we are now finished as far as the political problems have concerned quite a lot because you see one side is gone - you clap with both the hands and the one hand is gone like Gorbachev was really, definitely, objectively and sincerely has shown his interest in all kinds of military thing to establish peace so now Americans have to do something about it - so that problem is over but also UN has another problem is Fundamentalism. Then we have got another problem is of, as he told you, of the ecological, ecological imbalances. Now, ecological imbalances, as he said, has will only come when there's a transformation of human-beings and the awareness that of course, you can only achieve through sahaja yoga but also you'll be amazed that - Dr. Hamid is not here but he was asked by his government - he was a, I think, was an Advisor in Agriculture in some country by the UN but later on now he's working in Austria and the Austrian government requested him to help the trees because they were dying out with acid rain so he took vibrated water and put it to these trees and he came and told Me, "Mother, 60 years old trees have died away but all the rest have come up and they are doing all right." So they have, they have developed such [UNCLEAR - TREG?] that they can even fight the acid rain also.

So ecological problems can be solved. Also ecological problems come in because you see the people go to extremes - like machines are for us we are not for machines but you go on like mad creating machines. Now, they were going to, also this government wanted to have some - the other day when I was in Ganapatipule all these poor villagers came, especially these people who are fisherman, they said, "You must do something for us we pray to You." I said, "What has happened?" They are going to get all the toxic things from all over the world, all the waste matter and they are going to make something out of it on the shores of uh.. Ganpatipule, near Jaigarh, so all the fishes will be dead, no doubt and if there's a leakage, all the people can be finished. So why to do such a thing, what is the need? You see, there are so many other things one can do to improve the conditions of our people and constructively we should work. Now, I have in My small way have thought of so many ways by which we can work out so many things and we have already started a center for the women, for the downtrodden in the villages, to teach them certain things how uh.. collectively they can work out ceramics and things like that because it is done by some middlemen always and the middlemen take all the money, they suffer. Now, then I'm thinking of asking people near My place to grow lots of flowers and we can have a negotiation with Japan, who want to buy the flowers so they can bring their aeroplanes. If we're not middlemen between they'll get all the profits and they'll become alright.

See like that you can do so many things in our country but the middlemen, the greedy people they kill them but sahaja yogis are not like that. They're honest people, they, they don't take any money like that - we, we have no embezzlement, nothing. We are very, very honest and law-abiding people. - Do You need money for all these activities or not? - No, you see activities, of course, we do need but what happens that now, for example, I've come here so My husband pays for My ticket to come to India - after all he's very highly paid and we have no expenses as such but otherwise, the expenses now for example, hiring a hall or something, so they collect some money among themselves - now we have so many sahaja yogis. In the beginning for about four, five years I was paying for everything to begin with even for the people, their food and everything, I used to pay because you know, My husband is a very generous man and he believes that what work I'm doing is very good. so I used to pay quite a .... I had to sell My ornaments also, My family ornaments - I did it - but now, you see, the thing is that uh.. now they are so many and they want that for the programs and all that they are but for realization you cannot pay - I don't take any money. I don't know, actually you'll be surprised, we have a trust, there we have trustees, I've never even seen the accounts or anything. I have a Chartered Accountant who comes and sees and corrects it but I, I don't touch money.

I don't need, why did I need money for, for what? - For raising the Kundalini you don't need any money - For travelling and all that? - Travelling My husband pays na, My husband pays just now for Me But even supposing you pay for My travelling, supposing, in case, supposing My husband says, "I will not pay," supposing then you don't pay Me, you pay to the aeroplanes, isn't it? You pay Me, you see, these people, their lifestyle [LAUGHTER] you see, the whole lifestyle [CLAPPING] whole lifestyle they, they have 600 crores of diamonds this, that - yousee, this is not good. In the name of God, in the name of God you cannot make your livelihood - even livelihood is wrong, even the livelihood. You have seen people like Tukaram and all that. You see, Christ was born to a carpenter, He lived like a carpenter. Now My, you see, I come from a rich family, I must say. We are from Shalivahanas, you see, Royal family. My, We are well off people.

My husband also comes from a rich family and he's a very big man there also and he's got a big, big, big pay and all that. All that is there but, still, I can live anywhere; I can live in a hut, I can live anywhere - I've no problems because you see, if you just seek the comforts of your Spirit, so supposing, they are paying for this - it's all right, let them pay. But this doesn't mean that they pay Me for Kundalini awakening. You see, make a clear cut understanding that for Spirituality you cannot pay. Haan, you can pay for material things now, you have to pay after all but it's not much, you see, if, if you are a sahaja yogi, so many miracles happen. They say, "Mother, we got it for a very cheap thing, we got it for a very," you see, it all works out so well. I started sahaja yoga with one person and you can imagine uh.., of course I did spend money quite a lot before that but now I don't spend so much money as they are organising everything except for travelling. Now My husband wants to pay for travelling. Last time they had a fight, they said, "She shouldn't, She shouldn't pay for our salvation." So there was a fight, in England, about it but still My husband insisted, "Nothing doing, let me pay for Her travel."

And he's kept money for Me there so that I should not have any problem about travelling. You see, we have children married in very good families and they're also very satisfied people and you know about My husband. He's a well-known honest man, I mean, he's honest to a uh.. fault, very honest man. He was with Shastriji and he's got Padmabhushan for that and he's known for his honesty - and I like it because we need today honest people. - What is the message? The message is that we are the Spirit and we have to become the Spirit. This is the last evolutionary living process - from human, human life, from human awareness you have to get the Spiritual awareness and the whole thing will change. Now we have people with 36 nations such brotherhood, such love, no quarrel, nothing. - But they are only handful of people. - No, no, no.

There are thousands. In every country there are thousands. In thousands. To start with, of course, but not now. These are only selected people who have come here. See there are thousands and thousands and many could be. You see, we should, we should think that we all should help and we all should be like them - why not? That means you want to have many people - is a very good idea. You should have many people like that - why not? Is a very good idea to think that we should have many more; I would love to do.

I mean, My age, do you know, is 67 years now and I'll be starting My 68th year this March but still I'm travelling so much and I hardly sleep and hardly eat - I mean, I'm working so very hard so I'll be very happy. As long as I can live, I would like to work and spread the message everywhere and get people their realization. This is all predicted in our books. In Nadi Granth they have all predicted it. Even Rabindra babu has described it. There's one Louis, is a great poet in England, he has described it clearly and of course, I must say, William Blake, if you have read William Blake, he's described it very clearly. We had it in Nadi Granth completely written down, the complete sahaja yoga and Gyaneshwara has described as Pasaydaan so there has been seers who have described it; So the time has come for us to change and to enjoy - so why not enjoy? Then in the newspaper, you'll be only talking about sahaja yoga. As we have a a newspaper, we talk only about sahaja yoga - what happened, how people gained this thing, how they were rewarded, how, what nice things happened - everything nice, nothing shocking - no sensations. So, I mean, I, I would say that you should take to sahaja yog.

Firstly, you will not get into any diseases, alright, secondly, mentally you'll be very satisfied and a happy person emotionally, you'll be a very balanced person. You'll become a real uh correspondent because you'll develop a witness state - a witness state where you'll not be biased and you can penetrate into the problems - you'll be able to know what's going wrong and thirdly you'll become a peaceful personality, absolutely peaceful and that peace is what we need today; Only talking about peace, peace doesn't come - peace has to come from within. And you'll be a very righteous person, you'll be very proud of your virtues and you'll enjoy each other all over the world; They're all your brothers and sisters from all over the world. Alright? It's very relaxing and beautiful [MARATHI] [ALL CLAP AND GARLAND SHRI MATAJI] So we have to be very pragmatic and we have to be very constructive and something so unique we have which we have to put forward and I would say that you will pay full attention to it, you'll go through it, read it and put it the way you like but the best thing is to write about sahaja yog; These all these things are - there's already a criminal case on these people, so it's alright, don't you worry. - Hello! - Some more flowers. - Ah... - [CLAPPING] - [CLAPPING] Can you imagine that Germans went to Russia to give them realization - Germans? Can you imagine such a thing happening that Germans went to Russia to give realization? So all this kind of a mutual understanding, mutual - What's it?

From Austria? - Can You solve this Punjab problem? - Of course, why not, hundred percent. - Oh! - I'll tell you. - [CLAPPING] - [UNCLEAR] He's saying it's very lucky for the Yes, it's a, it's a very easy thing, you see. We have so many Sikhs in our community Mr. Khurana is a Sikh. What work I'm doing, is the work of Gurunanaka himself. Gurunanaka is the one who has written clearly about Kundalini. Kabira has described it so clearly in that.

He was so systematic that he got all the great saints of our country together to put this Granth Sahab. In the Granth Sahab there is Namadeva also - Namadeva was a great saint from India and he made him learn Punjabi language and such a big book he has written. Now, if you can put before them the ideals of Gurunanaka and what Namadeva has written and all that - you see they are disturbed people but if you tell them that there is a way to get realization - I must tell you one thing - Sikhs and Muslims are the best to get realization; Once they get it, they are there somehow or the other because they talk of abstract, I think, somehow and we have so many Sikhs now - in Delhi there are so many Sikhs who are coming to sahaja yoga and once it spreads to that side, I'm sure, everything will neutralize, - everything will neutralize. - and I saw several Pakistani's also and they were talking - Haan, haan we have Pakistani's also - yes, of course. [MARATHI] We have Pakistani's also - yes, true; We have from 36 nations we have people here so you can imagine It can be easily solved. You see, what we have to do - sahaja yoga has a healing process - it heals, it heals your wounds, it heals your problems, you see. So, if the heal, the healing process in Punjab could be put, they'll heal up and everything will be pacified absolutely. Just what you need is the healing process. I think, we have never used the power of love so far - only the hatred. Now, if you use the power of love, which I'm talking about - this All-Pervading power's love - it's very easy to work it out.

You'll be surprised, when I was going for the yoga seminar - I had been to Russia before - My husband said, "You have been just now to Russia, why do You want to go again?" I told him, "I have to go because we'll get Eastern Bloc there and I want to break the Eastern Bloc [UNCLEAR], I have to go." He said, "For two days?" "Yes, yes," I said, "I'm sure, there will be Eastern Bloc." and you'll be surprised, in that Yoga seminar they had given Me 45 minutes and they were all people from places like East Germany, then all other these Eastern Bloc people, all of them were there and they got realization; 30 minutes they allowed Me to talk and 15 minutes gave them realization and I walked out - they all walked out with Me - there was nobody left in the hall. They gave their addresses of these places Czechoslovakia, every, Poland and all that and can you imagine, as soon as they went back, it cracked, it triggered. So, if we have some sahaja yogis from Punjab, who get to sahaja yoga and they go there, it will work out because they emit peace - such personalities emit peace. It is at a higher level we have to try, not with words or anything. You see, today you might say, "You are my brother, you are my sister," [ASIDE - KHAIYE, KHAIYE NA, ITTI DER HO GAYI KYA KAR RAHE HO? AEY, DEO, TUM DEO - THODA, THODA KHAO.

ARRE BHAI THODA KHAO KYA KARTE HO. ABHI MA KE GHAR MEIN AAYE HO, TUM KHANA NAHIN KHAOGE? LEO THODA KHAO CHALO, BAHUT DER HO GAYI. TAB SE BAITHE HO] YEH LOG SAB KHA KE AAYE HONGE. HAAN, THEY MUST BE HAVING FOR EVERYONE] So, you see, this is, we have never tried it but now see the work of love. Now Kaliyuga has gone, now Kritayuga has started where the All-Pervading power is working it out. - It's such a - Rajiv Gandhi said, "We will come to power again." - Annh? - Rajiv Gandhi said, "We'll come to power again." [SHRI MATAJI LAUGHS] You see, that's not My area - I don't want to say anything about it.

Whosoever comes to power again, whosoever it is, has to be now a benevolent king, has to be. Has to be - there's no doubt about it. You see, this coming to power - what's the sense in it, I don't know. What is there - they haven't got their own powers. You see, look at Me, I've all the powers with Me, so you can call Me a Capitalist. You can say, I've all the powers, so I'm the Capitalist but I can't live without distributing, so I'm the Communist. So this power is outside, not inside. Inside to koi power nahin hai. Now what is there in these power - nothing is there. It is for you to now, to understand that this is neither this way nor that way - it is in the center we are; We're talking about how to bring people to the center to transform them.

Whether they belong to this party or to that party makes no difference - they have to come to the center whether they belong to this country or to that country. Now, this gentleman who spoke to you about TM, nowadays he is in South Africa and in South Africa we have thousands of sahaja yogis - in South Africa - and they are white people. - How long does it take to realize? - Ramadasa was the same question. He said, "Tat shand." Takes hardly, even a second but you better come to our center and it will happen to you, I'm sure. Already you're relaxed, if you see it. It is all your own and the best part of it, your heritage. [MARATHI] [MARATHI] [MARATHI] [MARATHI] [MARATHI] [MARATHI] [MARATHI] What is there? Have you any objection seeing that film?

Better see it, what's there. After all you're saints, you should see also the filth. Not Me, annh? I 've had enough of it. [[MARATHI] [HINDI - AAPKE LIYE KHAAS ARRANGE KIYA, EK MINUTE DEKH KE JAO.] [HINDI - DEKH KE JAO, YEH DIKHEGA NAHI AAPKO. DEKH KE JAAIYE TO AAPKO PATA HOGA KYON MAIN YEH BAAT KEH RAHI HUUN - Why we should see? - Annh? - We are not interested in that film. - Theek hai, koi baat nahin.

[CLAPPING] - Like you have how many days You'll be here? - Annh? - In Bombay how many days You'll be here? I'm going early tomorrow to Poona but these people are going to be here. I think seriously you work it out one day maybe you are the people who'll spread this good news and you will be the people to do some good for this country. See, we need people who feel, feel for Kya kiya jaaye? Aur yeh paisa banane ka dhandha nahin hai. Yeh to Ramdas swami ne [UNCLEAR] [MARATHI] Santon ka lakshan hai. [MARATHI] Jis chhez se logon ko fayada hota hai, jisse benevolence aata hai woh asal cheez hai. Benevolence, otherwise [UNCLEAR] - [MARATHI] You're not interested to see?

• No, no. No, no. - Alright. - How many days You'll be here? - Annh? - In Bombay, how many days You'll be here? I'm going early tomorrow to Poona but these people are going to be here. I think, seriously you work it out; One day, maybe, you are the people who'll spread this good news and you will be the people to do some good for this country. See, we need people who feel, feel for this, feel for this country.