Press Conference: The time has come to become the Spirit 1986-07-07
Current language: English, list all talks in: English
7 July 1986
Interview
Vienna (Austria)
Talk Language: English | Transcript (English) – Draft
Press Conference. Vienna (Austria), 7 July 1986.
Alright we are here to inform you about a power which is within us and the power that can give you what is promised by all the saints, scriptures and all the incarnations.
Today when you see the young people in every country – especially in the West – you`ll find they are not satisfied with their own atmosphere, their lives and they think that there is something missing and they are extremely confused. Now when they are confused they are seeking something beyond, something unknown to them. In that seeking, they may take to anything extreme, drugs, could be alcoholism, or some other perversions which cause horrible diseases, incurable diseases.
Instead of condemning them we have to see why they are doing all these things what is the purpose? Some of them also went to some gurus which are in the market. Especially when they see the religious people and the religions, they cannot believe that religion can give such horrid experiences and some of them are anti-God, anti-religion also. But if you deal with the problems sympathetically, you cannot blame them, because they are intelligent, aware people.
So now we have two categories of people. One: the ones who are not seeking at all, and another: the ones who want to find out solutions to the problems.
In every generation we had people who revolutionise because they do not like a particular system, or do not like a particular style of life, whatever it is, but now the revolution has to come from within.
We have to evolve from within, because the destruction is also coming from within. We are destroying ourselves more from within because we are so unhappy, so confused, absolutely “quite a percentage” is schizophrenic. So! Then we start seeking the solution and in that seeking we make mistakes, and we make mistakes because we do not know what to seek and how to find, also how to evolve to that state. So logically we have to reach some conclusions, logically, [to conclude] that it has to be some evolutionary happening, this is logical, that to transform ourselves, there has to be some evolution.
As Jung has said, "You have to become collectively conscious", "You have to become": it’s an actualization, it’s not just a certificate. It has to become from within, it’s an honest thing, it’s an innate thing. It’s not just a preaching or sort of a giving a certificate, it is not, or taking a name. It is an actualization within yourself, so that something has to happen to us.
Now, as we have evolved from monkey stage to this stage, for example, we ‘ve done nothing, it’s a living process which has taken place spontaneously.
There’s a big resistance to any oriental ideas being accepted in the West, big resistance. I find there is a very big resistance to any oriental ideas coming to the West.
Now these oriental ideas which are coming are to be seen with a scientific open mind because the western life has grown like a tree outside. But the roots may be in the East, maybe. We can keep ourselves open to see where are the roots? Now if the roots are in the East, supposing, it’s an hypothesis, so let us have a look at them, if there is any solution in those.
So, you go to oriental ideas. But this also is very dangerous, because you are going in the unknown, you might go to false gurus, you might go to wrong people and get completely destroyed.
So, what do we do? First thing we should know, we cannot pay for our evolution, we cannot pay, money is not there. How can we pay for any living process? If the seed has to sprout, the Mother Earth will sprout it, we don’t pay the Mother Earth.
The first thing they should have known is that anybody who asks for money is not a truthful person. No money should be involved.
Then the second point comes in, that we got to this stage of human awareness spontaneously, without any effort, effortlessly. In the same way it should happen.
But first of all, in every evolution there has been one leader. We can call them as archetypes as they say, or whatever you may want to say, though Jung was not very clear on that point. Such a person can decode the information of symbols and everything and can help others, without taking any money, without taking any gratification, he can do it.
Here it is that people fumble in the West, they don’t mind a pope, don’t mind an archbishop of Canterbury, but they do mind a person who is doing everything free, just out of love.
You’ll be amazed in England, the television people told me, that, "We cannot accept anything which does not take money." Can you believe it, it’s a fact! In, I think in Boston, or somewhere, they asked me a question: "How many Rolls Royce you have got?" This is journalism, I’m just telling you.
And in San Francisco they would not even publish my advertisement because by mistake we had said that we can cure AIDS. They said, "No, we don’t want AIDS to be cured, we don’t want anything to deal with our homosexuality." And they said such horrible things, that 65 % people are homosexuals in San Francisco. And the editor is a homosexual and the chairman is, even the Mayor is, so I didn't know what to do. I thought it’s better not to advertise, because we’ll be useless for them. This is what the problem is.
Then the most important thing which is not realized by our modern mind that the belief that anything new is to be tried, is very dangerous.
If we are dealing with the living process of evolution, we have to know that in spiritual life whatever is going to happen must relate to scriptures, to all the scriptures, it must relate to them, not to one scripture say to Holy Bible or Holy Koran, or any, but to all of them. Because it is like a seed that sprouts then it becomes the stem, then the branches, then the leaves, then the flower and then the fruit.
A living process, it’s based on something evolved through something. But whatever is dead like we can create a fruit, a plastic fruit from nowhere just like that you see, so which has no basis, has no meaning. It must have a basis from where it has come, its origin must be seen.
As in the growth of the tree all that is useless drops out, in the same way in evolution also, all that is useless drops out, even useless traditions drop out, everything drops out, but ultimately you reach the epitome where you become the fruit. So, the time has come for human beings to become the Spirit.
(Apart: What's the name for 'primule' in German? – Yogi: 'Keim'.)
So, every seed has 'Keim' and in the same way within us is our 'Keim', this is our Kundalini. And this is to be actually awakened, actually awakened.
Of course, the superficial people who are not worried about the world, will not bother about it. They are out of question, superficial people. But there is another type who is making money in the name of Spirit, or living on that money and organizing, will definitely appose us. Naturally we become controversial for them, because basically we hit them, through no fault of ours, we don’t mean to but it just happens.
But the person who has pure intelligence, he need not be a very well-educated person, nothing, but pure intelligence can see through the game, should be able to see through the game.
Now in Sahaja Yoga we have thousands of people all over the world.
There are people who are – we can call them the highest in the society, there are people who are the lowest in the so-called society. All of them are on par with each and every person, there is no higher/lower feeling, everyone belongs to that society somewhat, belongs to that society.
Moreover, when this happens because we understand what these incarnations were, the conflict of all religions drops out like that. We understand it on central nervous system. The conflict drops out. There is no question of not worshipping Christ, Muslims, Jews, Hindus all worship Christ, they all worship Mohammed Sahib and they all worship Rama, Krishna all these. Because actually they see that when the Kundalini rises, she passes through certain centres, and there you have to take the name of those great incarnations.
So, this is the knowledge of the roots and one must know that you have to become a subtler being to understand that knowledge. But unless and until we have that knowledge we are in for a catastrophe, there’s a big shock awaiting us, and how are we going to avoid it? Just by talking about peace, you don’t bring peace. Those who talk about peace, they don’t have peace within themselves.
So, we are at that point where we try to talk about it, persuade people and the media can help us. It has helped us a lot in Italy, and also in India of course, because in India people know about the knowledge of the roots. So, it is very easy in the villages of India, even in the cities of India, they are doing very well. Not only that but say for example Delhi University has accepted Sahaja Yoga for research and the degree you get is doctor of medicine, higher than post-graduation. After post-graduation you get this degree, it is very rare doctor of medicine for Sahaja Yoga, but they have accepted. Even Cambridge University, they have accepted this research. So, one should try to see the sense in it. They have not done it to criticize it, but with respect, with acceptance, that there is something about it.
So, I would request the media to give the facts, by understanding it. You have nothing to gain, but Austrian people should be benefitted, that’s all. As a result of the Kundalini awakening you can claim many things. But that can be seen that cancer can be cured, so many incurable physical diseases can be cured, mental diseases can be cured, drug addiction can be cured, the problems created by these gurus can be cured.
All these things can be done when you become the Spirit, but this should be just at a level of a hypothesis. When we do it and it’s proved, then you should accept it; not blindly. There is no blind faith in Sahaja Yoga. We have no priesthoods, nobody is paid. It’s a free society, and everyone becomes very knowledgeable.
A Sahaja Yogi may not be a doctor but he can cure people. He may not be a psychiatrist, but he can cure mad people. He becomes equipped with the power by which he does it. Like Christ was not a doctor, he cured people, in the same way, in the same fashion.
Now I would like you to ask questions, because it’s a very wide subject and one can go on talking about it. I wanted these people to explain to you for fifteen minutes all other things, so that you will have your questions ready for me.
Question: It's said, in the literature, any unauthorized tempering can harm in some way your Yoga. How do you explain this?
Shri Mataji: "Unauthorized tempering." I mean it’s written by Sahaja Yogis, their language is too high, so I would like to know Myself.
Questioner: Probably people who try to awaken the Kundalini.
Shri Mataji: Of course, of course, you see, Kundalini can only be awakened by a person who has the authority, divine authority.
You cannot elect the person, say as you can elect a priest. It’s not like that. You must have the power to raise the Kundalini.
Now those people who are leading a very, what you can say, in one-word, dirty life, cannot raise the Kundalini. You have to belong to this pure religion, a pure religion and you have to have these powers. Otherwise those people who try other tricks, what they do, they disturb your sympathetic nervous system activity. Kundalini does not rise. Kundalini will only rise by a proper Sahaja Yogi.
For example, I tell you, supposing there is a seed and you want to plant it. So, you have to put it in the Mother Earth. Supposing you put it on this table, it won’t, but supposing you put it in the fire it will burn. Only the Mother Earth has the power to sprout it. That’s what it is. All right. 29:03
What else? He’s done a lot of homework, I must say, it’s great and that’s why you must have read.
There are some books in German also about Kundalini, horrible books. That it harms you, it burns you. Nothing of that kind. It does not. It is the sympathetic when activated by wrong type of people, things like sex and other activations. Some people try to turn this out and all that, and you start seeing the light and all those things. This is all short circuiting actually. You will suffer a lot with that, no doubt. It’s so spontaneous, it just happens to you spontaneously.
(To questioner) Are you feeling relaxed yourself, you got it. You got your Realization. Only thing is that you have to little bit know about it, that’s all. You're absolutely relaxed, there’s no thought.
Questioner: No question.
Shri Mataji: No question. You got it. Just while you were talking to me you got it. Because you are positive and want to know about it. If you come with a determined effort just to criticize, then nothing can work out. You got it. May God bless you!
It’s your own. I’ve done nothing, I was just talking to you. Your Kundalini knows that you are sitting before me. She just knows by herself, that’s your mother. Your own, individual mother, and that’s the Holy Ghost. That’s the Primordial Mother which Christians don’t talk about, and then they don’t want you to know anything else, whatever they will teach, you should learn, nothing more.
I was myself born in a Christian Family. So, you have to have you see blinkers on both the sides. You are not supposed to see this side or that side. This is why young people fell a trap to these horrible gurus who came to make money here.
I know of somebody who came from jail who came to Germany wearing those saffron clothes, sat on one of the centers there somewhere and everybody locked to him. He came from jail. Because they don’t know how to make out a good guru. The Sat-Guru and the aguru there are books and books on that in India. But they don’t know poor things, and I don’t blame them because they were seeking, seeking so honestly, that they got into trouble. But I’ve been talking about them from 1974.
But another problem with young people from the West was, that they hated Christianity, that’s one point. So, when talked about Christ, they just turned round, went back. We couldn’t talk to them. They said, "Don’t talk of Christ", they went out.
So, this Christianity has done nothing but a harm to them. They just don’t want to hear about Christ. I mean Christ is a living God, no doubt, and I’ve to talk about him very much-but they don’t like it. Such a problem of conceptions, conceptions. You see reality is what reality is. It’s not a concept, it’s what it is.
You see Christ is the son of God. He is the real personality. Whatever church may do to it, or anyone may do to it, makes no difference. He is what he is. And this is what the problem is, the problem is the concept. Concept is not reality. That’s just a mental projection, just a mental projection. You have to rise beyond that to be the Spirit, all right?
May God bless you!
May I know your name please? George, good. This is a name of an angel, yes, St. Georg. And St. Georg, we call him as Bhairava in our Indian language, he’s called as Bhairava, St. George. A very great God, an Angel.
So, we have nobody else now here. Have you still any questions? No must be, because you have to face, journalists. What about you? Ask a question.
Question: Where has this message been spread in the world, in which countries?
Sahaja Yogi: Its now 16 countries Shri Mataji, in 11 of these its very very active, in about 6 of these countries we have thousands and thousands.
Question: Did they're [Yogis] coming from different religions as I'm coming?
Shri Mataji: Of course, of course, we have here he was in Islam religion from Algeria. Then, of course you know him very well, and here only you’ll find people of different religions sitting here. There`s a lady from a Hindu religion there sitting.
What was your religion Mary? Christian. Born again! Is it self-certified born again? I don't know. That's all the thing (Shri Mataji laughing.) All right.
So, of course, no doubt! We have in all religions, all castes all creed. Like Sierra Leone. Now we have got Africans there. Then we have got Spain. Even in Bolivia. What is the religion they follow in Bolivia? In Bolivia, a kind of Christianity. And also, in Peru, everywhere.
So, it is infinite. It goes to everyone. It cannot be rejecting one. How can you have anybody barred? We have Chinese, Japanese. All types of people we have from all races from everywhere. So, there is no question of that.
So, what else? Actually, I cannot give the list of all the nations, but practically all, except for Scandinavian nations. But there are still nations we have not approached but we have Scandinavian people in Sahaja Yoga. But we haven`t yet established centres there.
Question: What happened in Milan? Apparently when you first went there, so many people were there.
Shri Mataji: Yes, you see, I think Italians are great sensitive people. Italians are very sensitive. Youll be surprised, there are no gurus in Italy except in the North of Italy. They are very sensitive, very emotional and sensitive and they respect love and they have respect for mother also and when they saw my photograph, they did feel something about it. I dont know what they felt about my photograph, I don`t know what photograph it was, but they felt peace maybe, whatever it is.
But I was amazed, the whole hall was filled, absolutely. And Italians even as far as their government is concerned, all of them are very open to Sahaja Yoga. Surprising. They are very sensitive people and they must have found out about me, that I have done all good. There's no objection to anything, and now they have invited me to a press conference which Guido will tell you what it is, it is a press conference of all the people of Italy. It`s a very big thing, called as the press conference “Guest of the year”.
Question: (Inaudible.) ...there will be politicians, writers, all the support, and you will be the talk personality
Shri Mataji: Talking to all of them, will be nice, will be nice, really nice meeting them all. Yes.
But I feel Austria is one country which is very much in the centre, somehow it`s very much in the centre. Austrians are neither East, nor West, so in the centre. And they are very good for Sahaja Yoga, very sensible people in Austria. And we have found very sensible people in Austria, no doubt about it. Another thing is, Austria has never given us any problem. We never got people who were schizophrenic, or nonsensical, or fighting type, very nice people we got. Surprising. So, Austria has a special place, I think in Europe.
Question: (Inaudible.) ...What happens if they don't get it or if they get it [the Realisation].
Shri Mataji: Oh, something fell down, its all right. (A picture fell from the wall.) Its very, you know, they are very heavy and you have put very small nails, there are.
So, what happens...?
Question: (Inaudible.)
Shri Mataji: What happens if they don`t get it? Or if they get it?
Question: Some people get the Kundalini raised, no doubt. What happens with people after death, if they don`t get it. He said most religions work on a concept that, "You do it our way or you end up in a horrible place." (Shri Mataji is laughing).
Shri Mataji: No, its not like that. You see, I think, most of the people should get it. To get a very generous view of the whole thing, as the world is today, it will be taken by people, theyll take to realisation, I`m sure. Most of them will get it.
Supposing if they dont get and die, then theyll be born again and theyll get it. But those who have to go to hell, will go to hell anyway (Shri Mataji is laughing again), in any way. You see, there are people, as I would say, who would never take to anything good, could be, there could be people, I have not known, but maybe. Well should give all a benefit of doubt.
Question: Why is it so difficult to define what is good and what is not good?
Shri Mataji: Yes, because you see, yes that is it? Now I’ll tell you what happens. Now it is that your Spirit is absolute, is absolute. Spirit is an absolute thing.
Supposing now you want to know whether Im good or not, or he is good or not. Good is not the way we look at things, like you see the dress of someone, see the face, this is not the thing, its superficial. But when we have to see if the person is good or not, we see, we feel his chakras, you see. What chakras are catching, you can feel them on your fingertips. You see, like Mohammed Sahib had said, that your hands will be speaking. So, you feel on your centres, the other person. So, we dont certify them as good or bad, that category doesnt exist in Sahaja Yoga.
What we'll say, what are the centres catching in a person. Now what is catching in a person, what centres are wrong, we try to correct. We, like a, we can say, a patient comes to a hospital. The doctors dont say, you are good or bad, they dont categorise like that. What they say is, "What is the disease, let us treat the disease." It`s like that. So, the good and bad is not described in Sahaja Yoga. What is described are the centres which are out of place.
But some people have ruined their centres completely, have no Kundalini at all with them. They are like devils. Some of them must have been. I dont want to name them but could have been. So, with such people, what to do? They must have desire, I mean you cannot force anyone, thats the big problem.
If they desire it, well and good, if they don`t desire it, you cannot just make them do it. No, you cannot. They have to desire it, in their own freedom. Then they get it, the joy. Nothing can be forced. This is the handicap.
We dont categorise. We dont condemn anyone as bad, or we do not elevate somebody as excellent, but we tell them what are the centres catching.
And when you get your realisation, you will know, what is catching in you. And youll also know what is catching in him and then if I tell you, supposing if I tell him, "Dr. Warren your Agnya chakra is catching", it means, "Your ego is coming up." He wont feel bad. Because hell get a headache then, hell say, "Better correct it, Mother." With his ego hell get a headache, a little bit, "Its all right, correct it."
So, nobody feels bad about it. You see, there is nothing like good and bad, our words used are very vague, they are very vague terminologies. There is no precision about it, because Spirit is absolute, so everything related to Spirit is the absolute knowledge. You may say, a person is very good, is excellent, that we don`t accept. What we accept is, what are the conditions of his chakras and how much we can help him. That's all. No mean to bother about who is good or bad, that category doesn't exist, that type of category doesn’t exist. But of course the condition of the chakras is very important.
Any other question? Steve, you better ask me. He`s an American.
Question: How can you describe the experience of the Self-Realisation?
Shri Mataji: That I describe it, oh God. Now I never had it, so how to explain it? Im born like this. But I would say, the experience of self-realisation that Ive seen that happens to people.
First of all, when the Kundalini rises, of course the mechanism goes into complete force, and when She pierces through the fontanelle bone area, first thing you feel is the cool breeze in the hands. But not necessarily, some people will feel it on top of their heads, coming out as a cool breeze from their head, own head.
So, the self-certification is there, the cool breeze. But could be some people have too much heat coming out. Supposing there is a cancer patient, or anybody like that, a serious patient, you find that a heat comes out. Supposing it`s a person who is very much possessed and extremely unhappy type of person, maybe, or an arrogant person, whatever it is.
The Kundalini you can see clearly with your own eyes, pulsating at different centres, but specially at the base of the spine which we call as the sacrum bone. Sacrum is sacred bone. On the sacred bone so, you can see it very clearly. We have got photographs of that, absolute pulsation, you can see, like a heart.
Then the experience moves with some people it does, I must say. They do feel the rising, if its slow rise. But if it shoots off, you dont feel anything, you just feel the cool breeze, coming out of your head. Then you start feeling out of your fingertips also.
But the feeling you get first of all, when it rises above this centre, you feel you are beyond thought. Youre in the present, beyond thought, just enjoying the peace, peace of your being, enjoying yourself in a way, and then, when it pierces through a kind of a joy trickles out. Different people have different feelings, but say for Indians you see, they dont think so much as you people think, think, think too much. So, they don`t think, so they get there, first of all they get the joy.
But in the West the people, I think, get more the awareness about it. They start feeling this chakra, this chakra, they practise this that, ultimately, they get the joy. But Indians first get the joy and they say, "We don`t know anything about it." So, it depends on the condition of a person what the experience could be.
But on the whole, there is one thing happens to all of you, that your eyes start glistening, there is a glisten, there is a twinkle in the eye, sparkle. That`s what it is. And the face becomes, you see, relaxed, the wrinkles drop out, you drop out sometimes, ten years.
Like, see, my age is 64 years of age, 64 years mine is. But people cant believe it because you see I dont feel my age at all. We all have forgotten what our ages are. And this is what happens to you because you go in a state of existence only. But takes little time, gradually to grow into it, but it starts with the sprouting of the seed, that is the Kundalini.
But experiences people have are different. Like his case it was very deep, I know because he was a great seeker. And he had started a band without knowing the word 'sahaj' on his own, sahaj-band. I don`t know how he started. He must have got it from the unconscious, really.
And he had such a strong experience because after that, I met him for about five minutes and then he went away to Boston, and from Boston he sent me a telegram, that, "Mother we are waiting for you in Boston." They said “Mother, who is this one?” I said, "He is Steve, I know him very well, Im going down." And they were surprised and they said, "How will you recognize, you have only seen him for five minutes." I said," Ill recognize him, dont you worry, Im going down there."
So, you see, I can feel that also myself, it's within myself a person who`s got it. Like I told you, that you are now thoughtless.
It is a report of the collective, it is the collective report, because of collective consciousness you can feel another person and you can feel yourself. But it is an experience on your central nervous system, the thing is. But when you get joy and when you get your awareness, is a thing depending on the conditioning of a person.
Mostly the West people first become aware, more aware. They start seeing things better, those who have never noticed - say for example, a very nice curtain is lying here, but people will come, see superficially, will go away. But a Sahaja Yogi will see, what a nice curtain, what a nice pattern, what nice flowers, what nice.... You see, penetration into everything, starts feeling everything, penetration is that. But experiences are difficult and different like I think everybody must write about it. You are so many.
Sahaja Yogi: I have a question that many people ask at such conferences, is this, "Why in the past it was so difficult and why today it is so easy?"
Shri Mataji: That`s quite embarrassing to ask me. But one should reach a conclusion, there must be something about me, that I do it that easily. All right one point.
A second point could be: I explain it with an analogy that in the beginning there are very few flowers on a tree, very few, one or two. Then when the tree comes up in age, and the blossom time starts, there are thousands.
So, the time has come. Time has come and I have come, maybe that two things put together.
But maybe I know the trick of the tree better, perhaps. This is what I have discovered is en-masse-realisation, not individual, but en-masse. Thats what I have discovered. If you want me to proclaim, Ill proclaim that. But there is nothing great about it, I think. Because If you have something, what is so great, I have achieved nothing, you have achieved, that`s the point. You have achieved, I have achieved nothing. I have this with me. You have achieved.
I tell you, you must ask me some questions. You see, he is a barrister.
Question: (Inaudible.) ...In history, in the books, they all say the same thing, that there is one God as you say in Sahaja Yoga. So how is it these people quarrel?
Shri Mataji: Mislaid, mislaid. How they found different, different books, that’s a good point. Now. you see, in Sahaja Yoga you get into the essence of everything, the essence of the tree. The essence of the sap of the tree goes to every flower. It doesn’t discriminate.
But flowers are different. Now what these people have done, they have plucked these flowers. Like somebody says, "This is my religion", plucked the flowers. Then the flowers are dead now. So, they are carrying on with dead flowers.
The religions are dead now. But they are flowering on the same tree. And you get inside the sap, through the roots, so, you see, that everything is the same. It’s just a manifestation of the same.
Now electricity is flowing. It is giving it there, it is giving the air conditioning, it is working out there. But electricity is the same because you become the essence.
But if you see from outside, they look different. Specially, when deliberately they have plucked out these flowers and established, "This is mine." "Christ is mine", how? "Islam is mine", how? It is not. You cannot have them as properties. They cannot be your property.
So, this is what you realize and that’s why you see that everything is the same, you see now you have become an essence, your eyes have opened out, you see that everything is the same. You cannot become fanatic now, you cannot. Even if you try to, you cannot. (Shri Mataji is laughing). You just cannot become fanatic anymore because you see the essence is the same.
I mean sugar put into this, sugar put into that. If you become the sugar, you are in everything, isn’t it? I mean religion had to be little different in its form because of the times that were there. Times were this way, that way, you see, every time they had to change the outward form and things like that, all social level, political level, this, that. But essence was the same.
Sahaja Yogi: So, Shri Mataji, the conclusion to which we can go through would be that Sahaja Yoga eventually can put an end to all these fanaticisms.
Shri Mataji: Of course. You can’t have it any more, that’s very true because you see the essence is the same. You see 'fanaticism' comes from word 'finite' we should say. When you go into infinity, how can you have fanaticism? You "finite" yourself, "I’m this, I’m this." That is clubbing. Actually, it is nothing but ordinary clubbing, you see, "We have clubbed." Like somebody puts the, say, the table-ware on the left side – is one club. They put it on the right side another, then they distribute. You see, that’s just like stupid clubbing, that’s all. You cannot club God or Christ or anyone of these incarnations, they are all brothers and sisters and relations of each other. They are all related to each other.
But those people, who were in charge, tried to destroy them as soon as possible and take the charge. Christ lived for fourty years. How Mohamed Sahib lived you know. Every one of them how they were tortured. That’s what happened, because they wanted to take advantage of them. But forgive them now. All right, doesn't matter, some day they will come round.
Any other question from you?
Question: (Inaudible.)
Yogi: How could we approach seekers in these countries they are not free, such as Hungary and Czechoslovakia and so on?
Shri Mataji: In a way they are better off, I tell you. I’ve been to Russia, I’ve been to Czechoslovakia, I know they are not free, but you see, freedom one should be able to bear it. What is happening to the free countries, if you see them, horrid. If you go to America, you can’t wear your watch or bangles or anything. Maybe tomorrow they will pull out your hair also. Such an idiotic country. So, this freedom also, human beings cannot bear, in a way. As far as these unfree countries are, I tell you, the people are so simple. I went to China, I went to Russia because of my husband’s job, people are extremely simple. The governments are all horrid. But it will take no time for you to ignite Sahaja Yoga there, no doubt.
Actually, it is already done there in a way. Logically they are understanding it now what Sahaja Yoga is. So, it will come to Russia, it will come to China, from these bigger countries. But what about the free countries first of all, tell me about them (Shri Mataji is laughing). Free it’s a licence.
Question: What can be the influence of Sahaja Yoga on the social level, political and so on?
Shri Mataji: It’s great because we have people of that quality. What we need is a transformation of human beings.
Hypocrite talks of big, big things, cannot achieve anything in Sahaja Yoga. But the people who believe – not believe but know as an actual thing – that we are part and parcel of the whole, will not think of one government, another government, they’ll think of one world, the whole. All this so-called politics is because we are divided, the nose is fighting, the eyes are fighting, the ears. And when they discover, "We are one body, what is there to fight?" So most of the politics will be dissolved completely, as it is now. See, look at us, we have powers, so we are capitalists and we want to give it to others; so we are communists already, we want to share it, we don’t want to conserve it.
So, we are already doing the right thing, the integration. So, all these problems come out of human beings and as soon as they become the Spirit, the problems will be dissolved. The social problems, you see we have already solved so many social problems in Sahaja Yoga. You don’t have problems that you normally see, our children are great, our marriages are great, we are enjoying our lives, it’s heavenly. One or two mishaps are there, doesn’t matter, but mostly we have a beautiful society, no quarrel, no jealousies, no fighting, no malice, no hatred, nothing. Isn’t it great to have such a society and no dictation, nothing, absolutely free?
Question from Mary: (Inaudible – About the fact that Sahaja Yoga works for the good on a collective level but how is it that millions of people, for example here in Vienna, who are invited at the programs, they see the posters but they are frequently missing the chance or are coming only after several years. Why?)
Shri Mataji: Well, what can I do about it? You see, some people are very superficial, some think no end of themselves, they think they don’t need anything, all kinds they are. I know, I agree with you, but it happens.
Question: Concerning your advertising, the German wording of your poster sounds like to an invitation to an instant coffee.
Yogi: He thinks that the advertising by the Sahaja Yogis for this program sounds a little bit for an instant coffee.
Shri Mataji: It is instant coffee. But what to do? You see, I tell you, you buy instant coffee, isn’t it? Now in modern times everything is instant, so we have to have instant Yoga also. It is, what to do? It is! But you see now, we can say that you get it after a lot of sufferings and you have to sacrifice this and sacrifice that, all right, but it is not true. Now, what to do? It is instant coffee. But we take instant coffee, we want everything to be instant in this modern time, why not Yoga?
Question: (Inaudible – Repeat what it sounds like concerning advertising.)
Shri Mataji: So, you tell us now how to advertise! You see what I’m saying, that’s a fact, I really tell, that’s a fact. The Kundalini I call it the jet-Kundalini in modern times. Really, I’m myself surprised that it’s working – just shoots off, you know. Thousands of people in India, thousands. What am I to do, it works like that. I think the Divine is anxious that, "Let’s have it now" just like that. It is. In modern times it’s working very fast. Not only me, ask him, how many people he has given realization, everyone of them has given to thousands realization. I mean, seeing is believing. But advertising, we don’t know what to say now.
Sahaha Yogi: Perhaps the English word is a little bit slick, a little smart, something like that. Perhaps you mean more profound, more deep, that it’s sounding like the other gurus?
Shri Mataji: I don’t know about other gurus what they like. But why don’t you see to it what you should write. I’ve no idea.
Sahaja Yogi: It’s written that, "The time has come, the true realization here and now."
Shri Mataji: So, what should we see, what should we say? "Here and now" it is a fact. I tell you, really. Now what should we say? All right, is true. But what I’m saying, for people to be attracted... What he is saying that when you have to attract people from outside then we should put... Try to change it. I don’t know what.
Sahaja Yogi: Perhaps what Mary meant was: is there a certain type, is there a certain stage when you come to Sahaja Yoga or is it that everybody should be brought in right now? Or do you reach a state in your awareness, where you are ready for it, or is it something that you just come? Is it the advertising department good or not? But it's good! (Laughter.)
Shri Mataji: I just don’t know what to say on this point because, you cannot say certainly that people have to reach a certain stage, because a person you see, his wife brought him saying, he is the worst man, indulges into this, indulges into that and all kinds of things, bad certificates about that fellow and as soon as he came in, he got his realization. This is really true, I tell you. People are suffering from cancer got realization in no time. What is the stage, I don’t know. But maybe we can say the attitude towards life. Maybe the attitude towards life. Say, for example, in the West. I like these BBC people telling me that, "If you say that it is without money, nobody will listen to you." But I can’t say it is for money. That’s one point.
He said, "When you say 'free admission', he thinks it’s useless." The conditioning is so bad, that if you say, "Free admission", he says, “Oh, it must be something funny!”
Sahaja Yogi: He said it’s the Anglo-Saxon brain.
Shri Mataji: This is what he said, "Anglo Saxon brain cannot understand anything without money." Can you imagine? He told me frankly. He said, "You change this." I said, "What should I say? I really don’t take any money. What am I to say?" This is what it is. You see, this is the conditioning of the mind.
But in India it is not so. In India if you see from the villages, they’ll come on bullock-carts, they come miles together they’ll walk. When they will know, "I’m going there."
Also, the knowledge is not here. They have no background, what I would say. A background is needed or I don’t know. The sensitivity is needed. The Italians did not have the background but sensitivity is there. Worst is in, I would say, in Switzerland or America. It is the worst of all. America felt for all kinds of gurus but for Sahaja Yoga very bad. I’m sorry. That’s how it is. They don’t look at Sahaja Yoga. Now they are, after they’ve had all the experience of all the guru shopping, they did. Now they are coming. They want to do shopping, you know. It’s a fashion. Guru is a fashion. It’s nothing deep, it’s a fashion. Going to this guru, that guru. So how to talk to them? They have money. They want to shop it.
America was the worst of all, I must say, experience wise, supposed to be the most advanced, most free country. They are the worst of all. But in Austria I’ve seen the halls are filled, they are full. In Austria we always get the halls completely filled. Just like also in Italy. I mean the people have to sit on the stairs in Austria, isn’t it? We don’t have that problem.
But getting realization is not possible for everyone – perhaps. There’s some sort of an understanding needed. I can’t explain why. Because the house is all full, I tell you. You see the halls are absolutely filled. People sit on the stairs, you see some are sitting outside, some are standing on the street. It’s there despite the fact they are Saxon brains, he says. Did you write "free"?
Sahaja Yogi: Yes.
Shri Mataji: Yes, that’s it. They’ll come around, gradually they will. See they have to learn their lessons a little bit more, I think, that’s all. Now you, with you I tell you why. Because you are in the UN a big boss there, working in the UN itself spoils your head, I tell you. I know, my husband is there. So, I know all of them and their heads get swollen up for, see, UN personality. Then you are attending big conferences, you see, so called big, big people you see, big, big heads you meet. Naturally to be the big head, these things do not go in. So, it’s all right.
But now you are all right. That is one of the things, UN people-bureaucrats are the worst of all. They will be the last to come to Sahaja Yoga. My husband is a bureaucrat and I have to deal with them. I never talk to them about Sahaja Yoga never, never, never. Bureaucrats they only want to serve government, that’s all. They don’t understand anything beyond. So, bureaucracy is like that.
Now what else you have in Austria? Bureaucracy, then you have military. Students, they will come.
Question: (Inaudible.) ...People understand the message but say, "Why should people worship you?"
Shri Mataji: There’s no need at all. I would be very happy if they don’t worship. But you see, those who worship me, have found out something good out of it. That’s why they worship me. But you know, actually I hate that. I always see to it, that these pujas should be so much lengthy, that I have some time to rest. But I don’t want them to worship me at all. It’s very good, that’s very good of them. I tell you some of them, when they touch my feet, I get blisters. Horrible!
As yesterday, I was telling you, like scorpions. I get such big, big blisters on my feet. I don’t want them to worship me if you ask me. But they would like to. Because you know what it means, worshipping me. You all know it very well. Worshipping, what do you give me? Nothing! You just say certain mantras, this, that. What do you give me? Nothing. There is nothing to worship me.
For example, now, see my photograph, this one, is when I was sitting in a village. When I entered the village, I told them there is a very great soul who lived in this village. They said there was one, he was a Muslim, his name was “Mia”. So, I said, "Now he must have been still here." And I sat down to give my lecture and I saw the Spirit coming as a light of two hexagons, you see, on top of my head, I saw it. But you can’t see it. I mean, people can’t see.
But camera captured it. The camera captured it. And then the sun’s rays through that prism – like Spirit started coming as all seven colours on me. I could see it. I could see, then I was very happy with it, you see, with this report. But nobody could see it. Then I said, "All right, it’s more than one’s sense of reception, like that." I said it. But nobody can see it now, so what’s the use of my telling them, "You should see because you will not see." So why to tell anybody about my worshipping also, till they understand it. But the camera caught it, what can I do? Thank God, the camera caught it. I didn’t say.
Why do they worship Christ? They’ve never seen Him. Why do they worship Christ’s Mother? They’ve never seen Her. What did She do? She was just crying all Her life, She didn’t give realization to anybody. Even Christ didn’t give realization to anyone, so, why do they worship Him? You are a Christian, you should ask them a question like that. Why do the Muslims worship Kaaba?
But in Sahaja Yoga I’m a discovery for you. I never asked anyone to worship me, never. It’s horrible for me. I’m frightened of people trying to worship me because, you see, I’ve to take up everything, to suck in everything of you. They can tell you, that I just don’t like it. I want to make a big gap in between, so at least I have some time to rest, to suck in the whole thing, digest it and take it out. So, you need not tell them at all. In the beginning you should not tell them anything. Tell them that, "You are great", come along. Let them have their realization. Then if they say, then we should consider, whether they should worship me or not. And everybody is not allowed to worship also.
Do you know that Mary, that we don’t allow everybody to come? You have to be a clean person, otherwise they are not allowed.
So, this worship is your privilege, not mine, by any chance, I tell you. By any chance. At which you will all say, that Mother shuns it, I really shun it. These false gurus because nothing happens to them, they like it.
So, there’s no explanation for this. It is to be seen. Even if they come to Sahaja Yoga they can see it very well. Unless and until they come in it, you should not talk of me as anything as incarnation, anything, just don’t talk. You should not tell them of worship or anything. Just tell them that, "You have to get your realization." Let them first open their eyes, then talk to them about this. In the beginning, if you start talking, they’ll be stuck no doubt, they are stuck because they’ve not reached that point. They have to be sea-worthy, to be in the sea, isn’t it?
Nothing is needed to begin with actually. And I don’t want anything, really. If there is anything that is to be done, is to give realization to everyone, that’s all. But to progress further, they have to worship me.
They will worship somebody who is dead and gone. They never worshipped Christ when He lived. They never worshipped His Mother when She lived. They never worshipped Rama, they never worshipped Krishna. Now when they are dead, very nice to worship. But they are stones now, what can they do?
That’s human nature. When somebody is dead, then perfect joy. The ones who crucified Christ have raised these churches. When a person lives, you see, in the present, you never appreciate.
Because we don’t allow anyone to worship also. It’s a very great privilege for anyone to be there, you know that. It’s not for everyone. So many people have been denied in England and all that. Just now you have to prepare yourself, "Oh no, no, no". Everywhere.
And yesterday I was telling Guido that you should not have brought that lady, she was no good. The one who was your room-maid, who was pestering you. And I said she was very caught up and you should have not been brought here to the puja. That disturbs me. It’s very significant. But like a person who has to be a post-graduate student, to understand certain things, you have to be a post-graduate in Sahaja Yoga to be in a worship. Otherwise you should not. So, you don’t talk of these things. They’ll get stuck, no doubt.
When I’ve no doubts about it. Anybody would get stuck, because it looks so funny, isn’t it, that you have to worship another human being. It is. So, you have to use discretion. Anybody would be stuck that way. Unless and until you are a first-class Sahaja Yogi and you understand the value of it, and you have gone deep into it, then only you realise. It is to be appreciated.
I never talked about me at all to anyone, never, till some saints started talking about me. Some saints only told some people, that this is this. Then they came and asked me and I said, "All right, you find out for yourself". You see with human beings you have to be very, very careful and cautious. I do not want to get crucified, you see. You have to be very, very cautious with them, because ego is the first thing they come with.
They dont understand what is beneficial for them. You see, what did Christ do to them? Did he ruin them, or do any bad to them? But they crucified him, isnt it. They gave poison to Mohammed Sahib. Why? What was the thing? Because ego! So, you should be careful with it. Even when you write, supposing in your wherever you write, you should write it cautiously. Make it so, that according to your own understanding, that they come to my programme. Use your wisdom.
What you want to put it, how to put it, or if you want to say, you can say that at the first instance the Kundalini rises and then you have to grow into it. If you don`t want to say it quick, instant-coffee- business, so, you may say like this. That might look nice. I would suggest that way, all right? That would help.
But with the people, some of them are very deep people, they just get realisation in no time. Because they have been deep people all their lives. Not life, but lives. So, they just get it.
So, it attracts people who are superficial, then it's not a good thing to say. That may be one of the reasons that only superficials come to our programme. We should find out what to write that the deep people are attracted. Isn`t it. You should find out ways and methods by deep people are attracted not superficial.
I agree with you, the hall gets filled up, because maybe superficial. Like a sale-on. Nobody buys anything, it`s just a sale on. Everybody comes to see the sales. (Shri Mataji laughing) This is Kali Yuga, you see. The confused state. This is the age of confusion. This is the age of confusion, real confusion.
Also, some people say that why should 'I' give realisation. I said, "Better you give, very good idea. I would like to retire." You see this is ego, isnt it, "Why should 'you' do it?" I mean Im doing it, because I have to do it, all right. But if you can do it, nothing like it, I’ll retire. I will be very happy. I mean my age is beyond now retiring. I would have retired long time back. See going on and on (Shri Mataji laughing).
So also, you should see the people who they are, and then talk to them. You must use discretion, very important to use discretion. As he said, maybe some people may not get it in this lifetime. Maybe next time. Also, it happens that, you see, some people get realisation, say for example and get transformed and become something very beautiful.
Then the mediocre, the mediocre people, you see, may see that and try to follow it. The mediocre may try to follow it. Like when I went to Italy this gentleman who is a very famous person who interviewed me, he said, "First you give me realisation, then I’ll interview." Because perhaps he believed in me whatever it was, or may not have believed, might be doubt, whatever it is, he got his realisation. Then he started laughing and he said, "Oh, so Ive got it now." I said, "Yes, youve got it."
Now it is he who is organising all this thing. So, may be like this it might fore come. Depends on. You see, human beings are quite complicated in modern times, very difficult to hold on to them. If you give them this, they will come this way. If you give them that, they’ll come this way. Just they dont want to have it. Just some books or excuses, its terrible. I know. Specially in the West, Its very difficult. Very difficult. But theyll accept something stupid, like punks.
Punks you will find thousands now. People in very high positions are punks now, can you believe it! Imagine our prime-minister going as a punk. They accept stupid things without any questioning. Think of it. Drugs for example, they accept it without any understanding, without any asking and very educated highly placed people do it. Absurd things like that. Alcoholism, womanizing, everything, all nonsensical things.
But to do something good to yourself, it takes time. They are very self-destructive by temperament. To do something nice to ourselves, to get some blessings upon ourselves we are slow. But it will be all right. They have to learn their lessons, that`s all I think. Yes, they have to learn their lessons.
Everyone satisfied?
May God bless you!
Im happy that he is a very wise man. He has done the homework. The other people just came, just like any... You see, that wont work out. Its a very deep subject. Its a very deep subject. You cannot just appear and go out, isn`t it? Steve are you going to talk to some people there in Boston. In this way. Yes, in this way. Really? Good, good.
Sahaja Yogi: All over the world we get thousands of people, we get big press conferences, we get headline publicity.
Shri Mataji: (In short.) Australians are very good, Australians are extremely good. Maybe we get superficial things. Could be. So, we should put something deep in it because its very deep experience. Its suggestion you see will be something which explains certain things. They like my lectures all right. They like to listen to my lectures, because you see, it appears on their mind, but they don't get realisation. So that means they are not very deep people.
For example, in Switzerland, we put these things. Nobody removed it. It’s still there. After three years it is there. It`s very surprising in Switzerland where people are so meticulous. They have kept my photographs. In Italy also. All my three-year-old photographs are there. Italy. So, Italy is there.
Also, I must say that advertising, whatever it was, in Australia, terrific.
Australia is dynamic absolutely. It's very progressing in Sahaja Yoga, no doubt. Australians imagine, can you believe it that they were sent there as criminals, by their forefathers, and today they are the ones to take everyone to Spirituality. Look at that. So how can you say good and bad? You can't` talk of good and bad!
Australia is the best. Australia is the best now. I mean in progress. We have the leader from Australia, Dr. Warren, who started the whole thing and we have James. Has he come? Oh, that`s James.
May God bless you! May God bless you!