VIP and Journalists Invitational Program 2001-07-15
Current language: English, list all talks in: English
15 July 2001
Vip And Journalists Invitational Program
Public Program
Hotel Russell (The Principal London), London (England)
Talk Language: English | Transcript (English) – VERIFIED
'VIP' and Journalists Invitational Program in Russell Hotel, 1-8 Russell Square, London WC1B 5BE (UK), 15 July 2001.
I thank you very much, all of you, for coming over for a small meeting that we are going to have and, it's very important for you people who are responsible in life to understand what is the work of Sahaja Yoga and how important it is. I mean, now we have people all over the world, it's working in 85 countries. In a country like Benin we have twenty thousand sahaja yogis.
All this is...why? Because people are trying to find the truth, they are not satisfied with whatever they know. They want to know what is beyond and I started this work long time back. I think I have worked in England for at least 25 years. But, unfortunately, England is nowhere compared to other countries. Even Austria has ten times more people, Austria and Germany. What's the reason? I think the newspapers. Your newspapers are not responsible, they are not at all responsible. Some may be, I am not saying all of them.
But the newspapers that I have seen here, they never come and ask me anything, they never try to find out if there's anything I'm doing that is good for people, which is essential, which has to be worked out. But somehow they take the very negative side. This is the main reason why people are lagging behind in knowing the truth. I'm sorry to say that. I have written in my book also that you have to be more responsible.
Actually newspapers are now even more important than any political party or any, I should say, kingdom or anything. They have achieved that power by their sense, by their honesty, by their steadfastness, their sense of honour. I must say that we got our freedom in India because the newspapers of England. They are the ones who wrote the truth about us. They are the ones who told how atrocities were worked out on India. It's only they who have really helped us.
I mean I cannot understand what has happened to today's newspapers as they are. Specially I am meaning the newspaper that I have seen, which is absolutely nonsensical (reference to 'The Independent' newspaper which had recently published a negative and incorrect article). It is talking about money. Doesn't talk about what good it (Sahaja Yoga) has done. Now I must tell you I have not taken a single pie in England. Never! It is only when they came to India they had to pay for their stay there. They had to pay, also, in Italy for their stay there. And whatever remains I used to use. I have used my money for 20 years. Last 10 years since my husband is retired I'm using this money. The houses that I have are all of my money. Imagine these people, they should have come and asked me before doing. It's criminal to be like that. The problem now in England is that they have developed a great sense of criticism. Just criticise! Now we have critics of the critics in this country. But whom are you criticising?
Nobody is creating anything. Have you got those old writers of England who were respected? Have you got that level of novelist that existed? Is there any, any person who can write like those great writers? I have read them and I know. I have great respect for them but were they just the lotuses in a pond, who were so great. They are the ones who established democracy here. They are the ones who brought such beautiful ideas to the whole world and what are we doing now? What are we spreading? All kind of malignant stuff.
I have never studied English in my school because my father was a freedom fighter and he said "No, you have to go into an Indian school" Afterwards, also, I never studied because I was a medical student. But only reading these things we Indians still respect you. Because of their intelligence, because of their clear headedness and also the [sense of] justice they had. That's all missing nowadays in the intellectual people. I was surprised to read in this newspaper all non-sensical things, given by one boy who is just a teacher, while Sahaja Yoga is working in 85 countries and we have scholars and we have great writers, all sorts of things we have here, and here one boy, who is just a teacher somewhere...I am sure he doesn't do it on his own. How can he afford?
There are only six people who are working against us. We could have really put them into jail but we didn't want to. Because they did something very wrong. Sahaja Yoga is a very moral society and if they are immoral we don't want them there. That's all! That's the freedom we have. That's the independence we have that we don't want to have immoral people living in Sahaja Yoga. What's wrong in that? We believe in morality and without morality our countries cannot improve. It's very surprising. They had some IQ. I used to think they'll have some, also, some heart but doesn't seem so. And after that now there is also SQ, is the 'spiritual coefficience', which you can achieve in Sahaja Yoga.
You don't know what heights you can go to. But having such stupid things, by one man coming and telling you something. And how cunning it was that it was just done before my program. Why? Why are they doing it? What is the advantage? What are people going to gain by that? First time I'm saying this. I should have said this much earlier I think. What is the achievement? Why do you write all those things which are nonsensical? Which are false. Absolutely false. Why? Is that racialism? what is it? I can't find out. I can't find out the reason why these people are listening to one man who is just a teacher somewhere and writing all falsehood.
We can pull them in the court no doubt, but we don't want to, because it's an open thing. If you want your Self-realisation we are here to give you. There's no force on anybody, there's no compulsion on anybody. On the contrary we are anxious to throw away so many from Sahaja Yoga! There's a code of conduct, no doubt.
We have marriages which are very legal and at the most 1% fail. We are very loving couples, beautiful children and a very beautiful society. One has to understand that you don't have that. You have to get to it. What do you have to sacrifice? Nothing. It's absolutely free. My lectures are free. Self-realisation is free. Now what else? We should offer them, I think, some tea also free then it would be better! That's, I mean, I don't know why in England where we had such great people right from Shakespeare. Think of them. I can't understand.
Shakespeare I call him an avadhuta, means a person who was beyond and was trying to show all kinds of human enterprises as failures. Just to show that to make them detached. Such a great sage like him was born in this country of yours. But if there are false gurus that's the best! If somebody tells you lies is the best!
What is the matter? Where are people going?
In a way it's good that I saw this article. And all falsehood! About Hitler what I have said I've brought the book. What I've said was that...you can read it out. It's very interesting to see what I have said it. Can you?
Also today I saw very nice article in the magazine they gave 'Culture' that what do we owe to Germans and Beethoven, because of him and all that. Such a beautiful article. But who will read that? I think better read it out so that it's cleared out! My memory's very good, that's the trouble!
Derek Lee: "So there was a reference in the recent article in 'The Independent' which Shri Mataji is now talking about to Her supposed attitude towards Hitler and towards the Jewish people. So this is just a quotation from the book
'Now to all the critics of Hitler he looks like an idiotic foolish and maniacal type of a person. Actually if you listen to any ego-oriented person or see him, you'll definitely witness the idiocy of his talk or his behaviour very clearly. Of course, if you are not ego-oriented yourself. If you are an ego-oriented person then you will protest against him saying that he's trying to assert his ego. An egoist can always find the ego of another person very easily but if you are a person who is afraid and frightened of egoists you will either accept his value system or accept the tyranny and subjugation of such a tyrant. An evolved soul would witness the babbling of an idiot and may get into an enjoyment of humour at this stupid drama. Hitler's ideas impressed none of these two types, but he captured the minds of a third kind, which was innocent, simple, raw and absolutely immature. The young teenagers whom he groomed for years. For these people killing became a great natural enjoyment. In the olden days people used to go to forests to kill animals, especially tigers, and as a result the tiger became a man-eater or attacked human beings and this killing had to be accepted. Even when eating the flesh of animals when sufficient food was not available was quite justified. Most of the people who went to the forest for hunting did it just for the pleasure of killing. This horrible desire can lead to a very dangerous ending. The horrendous war in Germany broke out against the Jews who had to die in gas chambers because' they were very greedy and cruel' and according to Hitler they had killed Christ. There were so many ways in which one could have controlled these greedy people....
....And so it goes on. It's a criticism of Hitler and of Nazism"
Shri Mataji: I mean how can I support Hitler? It shows a complete ignorance of Truth. How can you write such things in England which is not a country where all the barbaric people live? What has upset me is that I have worked the most in England. Days together. Day in and day out. Now I'm 76 years of age and I've been working but really people give up. But compared to these newspapers, in the smaller places they're very honest, because they wrote about me how I cured people, how I helped boys and all that. (a reference to a miracle in Northampton in 1982 in which a boy is saved by Shri Mataji after a fall even though She was actually in a Public meeting at the time. That miracle was published in the Local Northampton newspaper). But they (The Independent) have nothing else to write but this, that I take money! I do say that I don't take money for Self-realisation. Because it doesn't understand money. Your Kundalini is your Mother, She doesn't understand money, how can you take money for Her? Is a fact.
But if you come to Italy and live there five days you want to do it freely everything to give freely? Is it? Now we have made hospitals, I mean, thousand and one things. List hai na? (Do you have the list?) No? He's not brought the list. But I mean so many things we have made. Orphanage we have made for prostitute women, for destitute women. So many things we are making on the social level. At least twenty things in India.
Then in America I bought a land. Hundred and forty acres of land. Americans are much more sensible I must tell you. They don't have this kind of a mental attitude that whatever is written (in a paper) is law, no. They will judge it. Otherwise how will you take to Truth? How will you know the Truth?
My worry is the country which I think is the heart of the universe. I regard it as a great country, while what's happening to the modern people? Where are they going? You should have been leaders actually, in Sahaja Yoga. I personally think that way. You are all educated. You are known for your education and you are known for your understanding and here what do you find? How are they lured by falsehood.
The problem now is another one, that, by doing all this, they will reduce the number of people who can get Realisation. They will reduce the number of people who would know the Truth, who will create a society of peace and joy and love. This is what they are doing. They don't understand their responsibility and they'll drag the whole country into..I don't know. It's a moral sense you should have to understand that what have you been doing so far and what are we to do? Where our children will go? What will happen to them? They are taking to drugs.In Sahaja Yoga you just give up drugs. So many. In England itself there were seven people who came for [Realisation], all drug addicts, all first class [now]. Doing very well. Doing very good jobs. Drug addiction we can reduce in no time. In Italy I might start a hospital for drug addicts. Possible in Italy, not in England. Not possible. The English will come there and get there! Can you imagine?
Why this level has come down? If you have read Pickwick Papers you know how he has described in the democracy that time. Is that the same democracy is coming now? For me England is the same as India, because there are nice human beings and good human beings, learned ones. For me it makes no difference. And it's important that you all should get your Self-realisation. There are so many English here sitting. How much money have they given me?
This is a very pivotal point that on such a small thing like that the whole country should be destroyed. Why didn't they come and ask me? Every time there's one fellow comes up. Maybe he's paid by someone. There's hardly six people, I know all of them. And I know why they are doing it because we have thrown them out of Sahaja Yoga. In no other organisation people are thrown out, no other. Because they are wrong, they are doing wrong things, immoral things.
And such people should form such a good group for your newspapers here? The newspapers that used to publish such things about Warren Hastings (British Governor-General of Bengal , from 1772 to 1785) and all that, and gave us independence, they are the ones. They are the ones who fought for the right, fought for the truth, not afraid of anything. I mean, I think the newspapers are at such a pivotal position that they can kill the nation or can save the nation. I can't understand still. What is the purpose? The purpose is to dissuade people.
Don't you all want to know the truth about your Self? You don't want to know? Let it be. You are free. If you want to know you can know. I cannot force. It cannot be forced. It has to be your will, free will. It has to be your will otherwise it won't work out. If you try to say that "Alright, raise my Kundalini!!" I cannot, I cannot.
You must have that pure desire to become the Spirit. If you don't have, I cannot, nobody can raise, it's a fact. Because other desires are never satiable as you know. That's the principle of economics. There's only one desire which is satiable is that you have to become the Spirit, and that you have to become the Spirit, is said by all the religions and all the saints. I'm not the only one who has said. Even if you say Tao, or any other such things, they say the same thing, that, you have to become your Self you have to know your Self. 'Know thyself'. Now how do you do it? Is it not important to know your Self? If not, alright! But if it is, then try to get it.
Now they told me your all very responsible people have come here. And all of them have read the newspaper and all. To me, I can't believe it. Because you are all educated people. You read every day the news and you know the calamities what are following. What's going to happen to this world? Think of it. With hatred with killings. What is going to happen? What is the destiny of human beings? Yesterday I spoke about that. What is the destiny? Just to make some money if you put some controversial thing (in the paper) it's being very irresponsible. This is what they told me that, they want to know about the newspaper and this and that, so I had to tell, but to be very frank, it's nothing important. We are on the verge of jumping over with the last breakthrough of our evolution and there is this Kundalini. No credit should be given to me. It's your Kundalini, your pure desire and if it is awakened and if you get your Realisation then first you feel cool breeze in your hands. Mohammed Sahib has said that, "At the time of resurrection your hands will speak and they tell you what centres you are catching".
All this knowledge was known to some people but was never imparted to any, or to very few. Only one Guru used to give Realisation to one person. And whatever you read in Tao seems to be something out of the blue, how can that be? A saint described there is a very different type of person. Now, how to become a sage was not told. Though in the Tao system they have said there is a mysterious female energy within you. Respect the Mother. But they didn't say who is this Mother, what is this, what is her job.
That way I must say, despite all that, that Indians are very much near it, because the whole culture builds that up. We have also very bad influences of very bad things, but still, those Indians who have come to England are not very near this, I must say. But those who are in India, I don't know why, by changing the land or whatever it is, very few Indians in Sahaja Yoga in England. Why? What is the reason? They'll go to some babaji who'll give them a story, that's all, finished, in the morning. Why are they not seeking their Self-realisation? Only in England! Only in England! What's the matter? It's difficult to understand. We have tried. Sahaja Yogis have tried. They have given up. Why? What's the matter with Indians when they come here? I think they have become very money-oriented. Whatever it is. I mean, in India also there are money oriented people. I don't know.
According to Indians, the thing that one has to achieve is Self-realisation. In life that is the most important thing. That's their tradition that's their education. How they are contaminated I don't know. It's surprising. So what is it that works that way? This is your country and you should be proud of this country. You have given freedom to so many countries. You have done so much of good work and so many blessings are there upon you. But be careful now. If you miss the point, you will miss it.
Yesterday I told (at the Royal Albert Hall) what is the destiny of humanity. You see every day wars going, fighting going on, killing going on. There's everywhere racialism or anything else. Under the name of religion. Anything! How human beings have become so much perverted God alone knows. But now the time has come to find your way and help the whole world to come around. You can help the whole world, you can be leaders of the whole world, but what I find that nobody takes the challenge.
Now the positive side of Sahaja Yoga I need not tell you. You get cured, you also get materially alright, I mean all kinds of things there are. You become a nice person, sweet balanced, happy and you give happiness to others. We have marriages, we have children who are beautiful. Our families are beautiful. One in a million of course they divorce or do anything, is allowed. Nobody is forced. But we have legal marriages. First they are married and then they are registered. Not illegal, we will not have. As you have here we don't have. We don't allow other nonsense like homosexuality, marriage between men to men and all that - is absurd!!
They all give up, all give up all these habits that's the best part of it. Once your Kundalini rises they all give up all these bad habits. All this perverted things which are very shocking and surprising. And they get cured of many diseases. Hospital they said "You have to pay" I mean how can you have a hospital [free]? The building I built but you can't live anywhere free. And for one bed they charge £4. We have five doctors working there now. And for a room which is air-conditioned, where your family can stay, which has an attached bath and all that they charge only £12. Is it too much? Even in India they charge much more.
I mean we can't go on giving free things from where are we going to do that? But as they say "cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap". Cheap it is. It's written. Nobody sees the point. The reason is you are lost in the whirlwind of criticism. This is the curse, I don't know why is this the curse in England. Italy, imagine, where Pope lives we have at least ten times more or twenty times more people there. They are curing people, they are giving Realisation, they are going in the villages, working it out. But there must be some curse, I must say, that you don't see the point. You have to be satisfied about yourself. You should know that you don't know the Truth. This is a very subtle Pure Knowledge of a very correct, to the point.
Now we have so many doctors, ask them. They have cured people and they have seen how people are cured and they all have this knowledge, what is the problem is, what a person suffers from. I don't know. It's very difficult, I feel sorry. Every time they ask me Mother please come, I come, alright. They are so anxious I should come, alright, I come, but every time? Last time also we had a meeting like this. How many come out of it? Two or three. It's just a function you know, go to some party or something like that!! You have to respect yourself. you have to honour yourself that you are human beings, highest of evolution, and that you have to have your Realisation, you have to have. Why not? Africans are having, why can't you have? It's your due, it's your birthright I say. To take your Realisation is your birthright, but you must respect yourself. If there's no respect how can I do it?
I am sorry I had to say this because they told me that they are all more anxious to know about this newspaper. I said 'Alright'. What good this newspaper has done so far? Tell me what has it done? You want to do good to yourself or no? If you want to do it, you are welcome, I am here, if you don't want to do it, you are free. We are independent people and we understand the value of your independence. Some things they screw up, tell you. How can you believe these people? All this comes because, maybe, they want to make money. I can't see why. Now you are all intelligent, educated people, you think it over, you think it over, what wrong am I doing? Alright, you can ask me questions.
Question: "Many of your followers meditate in front of a photograph of you. Some possibly regard you as a deity and seem to worship you. Should they regard you as a deity and do you so regard yourself? And I ask the question as a Christian believer."
Shri Mataji: "I'm also born Protestant Christian, and I know Christians where are they."
Derek Lee: "He's asking about the photograph Shri Mataji, that, sahaja yogis meditate in front of the photograph and asks whether we consider you to be a divine personality and whether you are a divine personality. He's very direct person Shri Mataji."
Shri Mataji: "It's like confession (laughter). It is very difficult to be born in those days and talk about spirituality, very difficult, but has to be done in these horrible days only. And only I think I was capable, Christ would have been crucified much earlier but I have sustained myself. Photograph, who has said you should not have, Christ never said that. Did he? It helps, photograph does help, what can I do? It helps a lot, it has helped so many. All of them will tell you their experiences about the photograph. I didn't allow them, but they found it themselves and they told me 'Mother, your photograph is very helpful'. There are so many miracles that every time I get so many letters. So I asked one gentleman, he's a scientist, that you compile them. So after a month he says 'Mother, now the letters have come over my head and here also, this side and I think you better see yourself and tell me which one to write!' You see for yourself how it works. It is, you see, it is something, no doubt. There are prophecies about it, all over. But to understand it first you get your Realisation. Without that you cannot. What is another objection? Have you shown them miraculous photographs? "
Derek Lee: "We showed them in the Albert Hall yesterday, not tonight."
Shri Mataji: "Now what are these miraculous ones. We have not made them, nothing. How do you see those lights, how do you explain, all around me? I've told them now that Quanta Theory is that. Let some physicist come round. There are two physicists from Russia and one from Brazil, they are writing about it. It's the Quantum Theory, that will explain. When I said something, anything about it, there are doctors they can research it and find out. Is the Quantum Theory. Unless and until you have an open mind you cannot see things.
(Derek Lee talks about miracle photos on boat in Italy in Sorrento.)
First of all one has to know that problems are created by religion. Why? Why should any religion create a problem? Because of our reactions to the Truth! And Christianity, because I was born as a Christian, I found out the reason, what is the reason, why it has happened. If you come to sahaja yoga you will know.
Another thing, it's a myth that Christ made alcohol in that wedding. It's a myth. The myth is that He went there and He made water into alcohol. No! It was grape juice. Now think about it, can you make any wine spontaneously? It has to rot and rot and rot and the more it rots is better. Is a fact. I asked somebody about English, why is it? They said "Mother, they drink a lot". The best house in a village is always a pub! You go to any place, [if] you want to find out about somebody, ask in the pub! Better than police station they will tell you "This man lives there, this man lives there" - very politely!
Drinking is so much here, baapare baap, in my book I've written down a little bit. Actually, one of my husband's friends, very good man, he died. So he said "You should come" [to the funeral], I said "I would love to come". But he said "Must have a full black dress". "But I don't have full black dress". You have to have a formal dress for the dead body, can you imagine! I was so upset and I said "I am not coming." Then he went there and he described the whole thing. When he came back he was so sick. He said "First they had a lunch before going to the cemetery", can you imagine? And then they said "Now to go for dinner back". Everybody anxious to go to the dinner. Nobody cried or wept or anything. Only thing you had to wear a black dress! It shows no emotional attachment! If somebody dies, it's so heartfelt. Nobody! I was so shocked and he was very upset because a friend had died. They said, "What's the matter are you not well?" They couldn't understand! There's no relationship of love. As soon as they die they will jump to find out who has got what in the property.
Our neighbour was there, he died [and] for one month, nobody knew he was dead there. He was alone, poor thing. He was alone and he was an old man and nobody knew. Then, I don't know, something, but they said this had smell or something like that, and the man who was taking milk to him saw the milk bottles one after another but he never enquired. He said, "I thought he's gone on a holiday" The house was open. This is our feelings are not good.
This is a country which I call is the heart of the universe. And also your newspapers circulate all over. In one of my miraculous photographs they were singing [the song] "Sitting in the heart of the universe" and heart, heart like that [appeared]. Just like the doctors draw. Many hearts came in. Just imagine! The proof. But they are heartless people. No feelings for your own father, for your own mother, for your own people. I can understand Americans who are only 200 year old, this thing, but you are one of the oldest people. Yes doctor?
Brian Wells: "Shri Mataji at the Albert Hall last night many people experienced a powerful experience they felt vibrations on their hand they felt cool air coming from their heads. Could you say something about why they seem to ignore this, why do they not understand that there is something very powerful going on here"
Shri Mataji: "I can ask you the same question! I don't know. They talk of baptism and for that they'll spend so much money, everything, but they don't realise their own baptism. I don't know where are they lost. And every one of them raised [their] hand (to say that they had felt it), every one of them! You are a different calibre doctor. I don't know what to say. I don't know. What should we do to awaken people to reality? What should we do? Now as this gentleman says he's a Christian. There are so many Christians, what do they do? Go to church? The mayor in Cabella where I live, he asked me 'Mother what do you do to these people?' I said 'I do nothing.' He said 'They are sitting with you for nine hours, what are you telling them? What are you talking? What's happening? While' he said 'I go to church after 15 minutes I start seeing the watch and after 30 minutes I run away'. You must get your Self-realisation. Christ has said 'Know thy Self'. That's the criteria. Alright? Once you know your Self you'll know everything. If you don't know your Self where are you?
I am here to prove about Christ and about all the great incarnations. How they were one. And to give you that Spirit which enlightens your mind. That's what you deserve. That's what you should have. Not only reading Bible but reading your Self."
(Somebody in the audience says he's coming for the first time but his wife has done Sahaja Yoga for 2 years and he sees that it has done her nothing but good)
Shri Mataji: " That's the point. You have to have transformation. There are many who will say this. And you now come to Cabella and see for yourself. " (applause)
Yogini's husband: "Is that a personal invitation?" (laughing)
Shri Mataji: "Actually, you see, it's rather spartan to be in Cabella because I bought lots of lands there, but one thing bad about this authority in Cabella there, they don't give you a permission to build. So it's going on and on and on still that permit for me to build something for Sahaja Yogis. Though I have bought one house, but this is little spartan but people enjoy. In a camp they enjoy very much. India is not that difficult. Italy it is. And the government goes on changing you see. So one government gives you permission another says 'no'. But you will enjoy, come along!"
Question: "I was reading somewhere that we are not human beings having a spiritual experience but we are spiritual beings having a human experience have you any comments on that?"
Shri Mataji: "Of course. Of course you are. You are not this body, you are not this mind, you are the Spirit. That's what you have to be! And once you become the Spirit you will know your powers. You become just loving angels. Very good idea!"
Question: "I follow the Christian faith and I'd like to ask you what difference you see if any difference at all between your experience and the laying on of hands by the elders as said in the gospel of St.James, chapter 5. Perhaps you could give us your views on that please."
Shri Mataji: "I haven't seen anything like that happening. In Sahaja yoga so many things happen I must say. I mean I am myself surprised when they tell me how people are cured. The other day only, in Italy, there was one fellow who used to play ...what instrument is that?"
Sahaja Yogi: "Double bass"
Shri Mataji: "Ha! And he, when he came on the stage, you see, they told me 'Mother you have saved his life'. I said 'How?' So, his heart was open for an operation and the doctors gave up saying that his aortic vein is missing and they closed the heart and they said he will die. And he just saw my hand he says, when he slept he saw my hand. When he was in a slumber I think. And then he opened his eyes, still he saw my hand. And he got cured, completely cured. So many things have happened. Actually I also don't know my own powers, it has become like that. So many things like that. This is one I'm telling because it's recently. It happens.
...Finished? Should we have Realisation now?
There's one fellow standing there he's writing who is he?"
Journalist: "I spoke to your organiser, I'm from the Daily Mirror"
Shri Mataji: "Ah, nice you have come, I'm very happy. I hope you all understand your responsibility as newspaper people. Very important. They don't realise what powers they have. They don't realise. Now they are better but, first time in India, we had some people from the newspaper and they openly told me, 'Do you want one column? So you'll have to call us to one restaurant there and give us a nice treat. If you want two columns, then you have to give a complete dinner.' (laughter) I was looking at them, I said 'Sorry, I don't want to have even a word from you but thank you'. But now they have improved. They have improved because some very important people in India are supportive of Sahaja Yoga. Very important. So it has improved. They don't do all this.
I think, now better have our Realisation, is the best. That's your own. That you should have. Just put your hands to me"