Interview 1989-12-06
Current language: English, list all talks in: English
6 December 1989
Interview
London (England)
Talk Language: English | Transcript (English) - Reviewed
Interviewer: So, are you ready just to, Shri Mataji, you started Sahaja Yoga in India in 1970, could you please tell us about those days?
Shri Mataji: First, I thought that better start from one person and I tried to give realisation to one leading.
Cameraman: I’m sorry.
Shri Mataji: At that time -
Interviewer: Okay, thank you. This is just a test.
Cameraman: I’m sorry Shri Mataji we just have to test the noise. So now we can go.
Shri Mataji: It’s all right, no no, then again I said...
Cameraman: Now we can go so.
Shri Mataji: All right.
Interviewer: Oh no, it’s come undone (background decoration). Is there more tape there? Where’s that tape?
Shri Mataji: Is Paul having some tape?
Interviewer: Where’s it gone?
Technician: Pause it, Nick. That paused.
Cameraman: Okay, time Her in. Ten seconds, Nick.
Interviewer: Ten seconds, okay.
Cameraman: Okay, go.
Interviewer: Shri Mataji you started Sahaja Yoga in India in 1970. Could you please tell us about those days?
Shri Mataji: First I had to discover it Myself, how I will be able to give amass realisation, that was one problem. But when I worked it out then I thought first let us try with one person and there was a very nice lady, very pure personality. I tried on her gradually by clearing every centre and she got it! Then I said it has clicked. Then I taught people who were coming...
Cameraman: I am sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. Can we start...
Interviewer: Start again.
Technician: Something started ticking.
Cameraman: It’s this clock actually.
Interviewer: That picking up from your radio mic?
Technician: No, something started ticking, it wasn’t there before, it’s just started and now the phones gonna ring. Can we have, can we have the phone disconnected? Unplugged.
Cameraman: I’ve also got another problem. You’ve gotta have to come this side. Cause it’s lit from there, it’s just gotta more...
Shri Mataji: My throat is also not very good today.
Cameraman: Rolling, going in ten.
Interviewer: Mind your shadow Paul, on the edge there, okay.
Technician 2: Can you hear that Paul?
Cameraman: There’s a telephone going somewhere.
Technician 2: Can you hear that phone?
Cameraman: Okay stop.
Shri Mataji: Relax, relax. Calm.
Technician: Yeah can you [UNCLEAR]. Let’s wait and put it on pause.
Cameraman: We’re rolling, so in...
Shri Mataji: It’s in my throat, it won’t take long.
Cameraman: Rolling, Take four.
Interviewer: Ready to begin? We go.
Cameraman: Five seconds for you Nick.
Technician: Take five.
Interviewer: Okay. Shri Mataji you started Sahaja Yoga in India in 1970. Could you please tell us about those early days?
Shri Mataji: So the first problem was how to get people into the idea of Sahaja yog[a] to tell them about Kundalini and to find out a method by which you give them amass realisation. So I worked very hard for it and ultimately I found out the way how to do it! By knowing the permutations and combinations of the problems that human beings have. And then I started lecturing, they announced my lectures and many people came to my lectures. But I didn’t give them any realisation, I was just telling them that we have to seek the realisation and it’s possible in this lifetime and we can work it out.
Then out of them I sorted out a lady who was very pure person I think and I said let’s try on her. So treating her on every chakra with my attention, I raised her Kundalini and she got it. And she felt very happy and joyous and her eyes started shining and she said ‘What has happened to me?’. So then I told these people that those who would like to come for Self Realisation they have to go for a little away from Bombay [Mumbai].
So we took a trip to one small little place where it was all very quiet and the seashore was beautiful. There the people who wanted to have their Self Realisation were still arguing and discussing. And that day I felt that I should try on somebody else. And one gentleman on whom I tried was a wonderful [UNCLEAR Musrati] gentleman. He got his realisation so beautifully so they started saying ‘Oh God, we cannot get it because after all we are good for nothing’ and all that. So that the first time, I think in life I really got very angry and I showed my anger and I said that ‘If you go on feeling like that then it’s not going to worked out, have courage in you and it’s going to work out’. And you’ll be surprised that very same day when we had the session, twelve people got realisation, out of them. There was about twenty six people out of them; twelve got it and two had got it earlier. And one was so anxious to get it but wouldn’t feel anything and suddenly she told me later on that in the train she started feeling the cool breeze around her so that’s how we had fifteen people to begin with. But the twelve of them, really worked it out because even if you get realisation you have to settle with it and you have to get full understanding about. With these twelve people I started in India and then this twelve people were once compelled to give realisation to a very big group of people in Nashik because I was delayed, my car was broken on the way and they had to start the work and they did it! And they were surprised that they could give realisation to them, of course they used My photograph but they gave realisation to them. So they had confidence.
We had many such incidents where people were diffident about themselves that how can they get realisation, ‘It’s not possible” but when they saw others getting it they just developed that faith in themselves and those who developed that faith in themselves got it. Then I had huge big meetings in India, thousands came, of course that time so many didn’t get realisation, about ten to fifteen percent used to get realisation and then they used to drop off.
Also they discovered that by raising the Kundalini people get cured. So the first onslaught was that of the sick, too much it was. I cured many people in Bombay, many people in Bombay, people came from all over the world. I should say in the sense that those who had relations and things. But I found those people who were sick people got cured but they had no interest in Sahaja Yoga. They had no interest in the benevolence of others. They just came for their curing, that’s all. That’s how I felt that first thing is that I must look after people who can achieve this confidence in themselves and can achieve the state of doubtless awareness.
This happened, you would be surprised in such a short time in India that in 1972 my husband got elected to this post in England. He was elected by one hundred and thirty four nations and our government insisted that we should come to London and we came to London, in the seventy three, in the seventy three in January we were here.
Interviewer: Could you please Shri Mataji describe your...
Cameraman: – Sorry Nick, can I just...
Interviewer: Yep.
Cameraman: Okay rolling again.
Technician: Take six.
Interviewer: Shri Mataji when you came to London, could you tell us your experiences? How you found things here?
Shri Mataji: Some organisation in India informed another organisation here that I’ve come to London and that they should arrange a program for Me here. And they approached Me and they arranged a program in London by advertising in their magazines or something like that and when I came here. I found most of the people who were here, were foreigners and not Indians, very surprising. And they were, I think six or seven of them got realisation so strongly that I was amazed that these people had no background, nothing.
Cameraman: Sorry, we got to stop there.
Interviewer: Yeah, are you on the wide shot?
Interviewer: People who are foreigners, not English?
Shri Mataji: – Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: And some of them got realisation very quickly?
Shri Mataji: From the Organisation should I talk?
Interviewer: Yes and you were very surprised.
Shri Mataji: All right, should I say that some Indian organisation.
Interviewer: You said that, yes we already got that. We’ve done.
Shri Mataji: That’s done.
Interviewer: We’ve done that. Yes and we got to the way you said you found more foreigners at your meetings and some of them got realisation very quickly.
Shri Mataji: All right.
Interviewer: So we can go on from that.
Cameraman: Yeah we are ready to go.
Interviewer: This is the pick up, continue or whatever you call it.
Technician: Take seven.
Interviewer: When do we go?
Cameraman: Yeah and go.
Shri Mataji: Most of the people who were there were foreigners, very surprising. And about six or seven of them got realisation very strong, got a very strong feeling of realisation and elation and joy was writ[ten] large of their faces. I was amazed because these people had no background of realisation or anything and then to my amazement I found out that they were hippies, not all but most of them were hippies. So they told me that they could have this program of the petition in a place very close to a hippie village that they had formed.
Of course in the family, everybody was worried when am I going to the hippies and I went down and it’s surprising they had brought about thirty people there, all hippies.
I felt they are seekers of truth that they are taking these drugs and things. And really just started blurring my eyes, I just couldn’t see them suffering so much. And some of them could see Me, they just saw, they said later on they was lights coming out of Me. And some of them were something like coma, they didn’t know their names, anythings in a horrid way. So of them, they again got about ten people who got realisation very well, surprising!
Next time I received a telephone call saying that they have given up drugs overnight and they want to see you. We were living in a house about twenty five miles away from London, I said ”Come along this Saturday”. So they came down, they stayed over. Beautiful people they were. So why do you make your hair like primitive people? Why do you want to live like primitive people? And they were wearing dirty clothes, smelling. I said ”Now, first of all, you go and all have baths”. So I gave the soap, everything. I wanted them to change. Then they came down and I was amazed that they were very, very beautiful people. Out of them about eight or nine properly settled down in Sahaja Yoga and that was the foundation. And I discovered that some of them were professors, they were PHD’s and this and that, very learned people. And the British whom I thought would be the most difficult people became so easily available for Sahaja Yoga. Not only that but they really felt duty bound to do something about it because they thought I could save of these people who are drug addicts. And the best part of it immediately they were scholars went to the universities and we got another scholar who rushed from America to see Me. And they studied everything about Kundalini, everything about what is Self Realisation is and they’re back next Saturday again. And it was so beautiful to see their anxiety, to help humanity, that’s how we started our work.
But the one we had with us who was a diplomat later on also went from various countries and then they got hold of they’re friends and things and that’s how this hippie movement which was spread in the whole of Europe gave us the connection. You see, like an ocean which look so dirty on top, the undercurrent went through and we got connection with every nation in Europe. And that’s how Sahaja Yoga started working out. But I went to France every year, four times and worked very hard and today I must say Europe has become a great Sahaja Yogi continent, we should say a, such a great leader in the West.
Interviewer: Thank you...It’s our achievement if we can do that.
Cameraman: Okay.
Shri Mataji: We can show a lot, you see...
Technician: Rolling.
Interviewer: Yes.
Shri Mataji: ...Many people coming. We can show all that, you see.
Cameraman: Right, so Nick in five when you are ready.
Technician: Take eight.
Interviewer: Shri Mataji could you please explain what is this cool breeze people feel?
Shri Mataji: This cool breeze is the All-Pervading power of God’s love. It is described in all the scriptures. It is called as Ruh or it’s called as the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost in the Bible and also Shri Adi Shankaracharya described it as “Salilam, Salilam” means the cooling, cool and cool so that is what you feel. First time you feel the subtle All-Pervading power which does everything which organises everything, does all living work which thinks about all, it loves.
Interviewer: Right, thank you. So could you explain to us please about the Kundalini?
Shri Mataji: Kundalini is a power for our ascent, placed in the triangular bone which is called as Sacrum that shows that even the Greek's knew it was a sacred bone and it is the power of our pure desire because all desires that we have other than becoming self -realised are not pure because you jump from one to another. This is the energy of pure desire within us which when awakened rises, passes through six centers and emerges through the fontanelle bone area emitting cool breeze. To begin with it might be hot but later on cool breeze. This is the real baptism, this area in Sanskrit called as Brahmarandra. But when this Kundalini rises, it doesn't give you any problems, it doesn't give you any extra movements or you do not get into any stupid actions. It just rises and you just feel the end of it. Of course in some people they feel the heat little bit, that's all.
Interviewer: And what other effects does this have on people, the Kundalini?
Shri Mataji: To begin with, this is the energy which connects you to the whole All-Pervading power. Like any instrument has to be connected to the mains, so you get connected to the mains and all the vitality starts flowing through you. As a result at different centers you get different effects, but the first one that you get overall is that physically you get cured. By your own power you get cured, physically. Many diseases like cancer, incurable diseases, many mental problems can be solved if one can raise the Kundalini and fix it up.
Secondly, as I told you, you can also solve emotional problems. You can also solve many social problems because once the Kundalini is raised, your spirit comes into your attention which is, as they say in Sanskrit, is Sat-chit-ananda, is the one which gives you the truth, which gives you the attention which is effective and pure and gives you the joy. So the wisdom dawns upon you and the family life, everything improves tremendously. But the best part of it is that in modern Sahaja Yoga, anybody who gets realisation after knowing about it properly, though they become Gnostics, but they also develop a power to raise the Kundalini of others and give realisation to others. They become very peaceful, they witness the whole world as a drama, and they become peers, as described, or you can call them as saints. In India we had many such realised souls, many of them, and now the time has come, as I call it, the blossom time, and now today you can see how many people there are, thirty six nations we have got. They have all combined together, integrated together, so peaceful. They have lost all these conditionings of their so-called man-made religions or their man-made boundaries of nations and man-made ideologies. It opens our gates to everyone.
Interviewer: Thank you. Okay, so we got to the physical cue. [cut]
Cameraman: Okay... five seconds.
Technician: Take nine.
Interviewer: Shri Mataji, can self-realisation happen to animals?
Shri Mataji: Oh no, no, they cannot because human beings are, they are the epitome of God's creation, and they have this right to have this last breakthrough into collective consciousness, the new awareness, which is described by you very clearly, because he also got his realisation.
Interviewer: Okay, thank you, as we come to Jung at the end. So, cut it. [cut]
Cameraman: We are rolling in five.
Shri Mataji: You can see one thing, here, that the... [cut]
Cameraman: Okay, we are rolling.
Technician: Take ten.
Interviewer: Shri Mataji, is there an organisation for which people have to pay money for their self-realisation in order to keep them committed to?
Shri Mataji: This is the living process of the living energy of living God and you cannot pay because God doesn't understand money, but it is important that they have to be free to come to Sahaja Yoga. There is no manipulation, there is no forcing and those who want to stay and work it out are allowed, but those who don't want are asked to get out. There is no half way because you have to grow, just like a little plant has to become the tree, a Sahaja yogi has to become a real ardent Sahaja yogi, but he leads a life, not of an acidity, but would be married, have children, have a very, very normal life. The best thing would be to ask the Sahaja yogis themselves what they feel because they are absolutely free people. It is their feeling of joy that makes them committed to Sahaja yoga. They want to share it, like a drunkard wants to share his drink with others. In the same way, those who are drunk in the nectar of God's love, want to share it and that's how they have committed. But for that they don't have to give any money and give up any family life. They have to be very normal people. And they become extremely normal. They drop out all their idiosyncrasies. They drop out all their funny habits and become very dignified, very intelligent, understanding, wise, Sahaja Yogis.
Interviewer: Thank you, cut it. [cut]
Cameraman: ...Audios is on channel two, backed up four.
Interviewer: And Wolfgang says, I could feel my chakras and the chakras of others on my fingertips and now we come to something for you to record. Would you want to talk about when you become collectively conscious, you enter the Kingdom of God, you become a peer?
Cameraman: Oh, sorry.
Shri Mataji: That I've already said it. But when you become collectively conscious...
Interviewer: Yes, yes you did say that.
Shri Mataji: I can say that when you become collectively conscious then you can feel others on your fingertips.
(Cameraman: This is an interview with Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi on 6th December 1989 in London. Nick Granby is the interview on Channel 1, Shri Mataji on Channel 2, backed up Channel 4.)
Interviewer: Right, yes, yes - I mean it'd be nice if you could say it again.
Cameraman: Okay, so Nick in five.
Interviewer: Okay.
Technician: Take one, scene 29.
Interviewer: There's no, actually there's no question really, because this is just going to follow straight on after someone's saying, I could feel my chakras and the chakras of others on my fingertips. So if you could tell us about feeling the chakras please.
Shri Mataji: What should I say?
Interviewer: About becoming collectively conscious.
Shri Mataji: Ah, as a result of this, a new dimension of awareness dawns on your central nervous system. And you become collectively conscious, means you can feel the chakras of other people on your fingertips. Also it means that a microcosm now has the feeling of the microcosm. That is, a small little drop has now become an ocean or you can say that now you can feel a part and parcel of the Virat. You can feel it. There is no question of mental understanding, you just feel it on your fingertips because who is the other there?
Interviewer: Okay, thank you. Cut it.
Shri Mataji: Why do Sahaja Yogis call it as Mahayoga?
Technician: Take two, scene 13. Rolling.
Cameraman: It's actually take one, scene 13.
Technician: Sorry.
Cameraman: Okay in five.
Interviewer: Shri Mataji, why do Sahaja Yogis call this Mahayoga?
Shri Mataji: You see, they have realised that Sahaja Yoga of present day is very much wider, subtler than the Sahaja Yoga that was practised since long in our country. Now, a person who becomes a Sahaja Yogi can feel the centers on his fingertips of other people, he can give realisations to others, he can understand that Kundalini will only rise when you cleanse your chakras by understanding that all those great incarnations and the great saints. We can say all the great prophets who came on this earth and who created these great religions, are within us! And that all of them are part and parcel of our being. And they are like milestones of our progress in our evolution. And when they raise the Kundalini and it stops at a particular center they have to take the name of that particular prophet or a particular incarnation then only the Kundalini moves. So it is not mental but through experience and experiments they have realised that all the religions which were created were flowers of the same tree. And human beings have plucked them, made them dead and are using them as their own. They are dead flowers and that's why all the problem. These are all man made religions. So it is called as Mahayoga because it integrates all the scriptures all the prophecies, all the religions, in their essence. Because the essence of all the religion is one that seek the eternal and transitory to be treated in its own limitations and understanding.
We don't have to preach that all religions are the same, we are our brothers and sisters and then we just start fighting. It just becomes part and parcel of your being, you just know that every religion is absolutely born on the same tree of life. So we have Jews who worship Christ, we have Christians who worship Krishna, we have Muslims who worship Rama. So we have all sorts of people who are of that level that from that height they see that all these rivers are flowing into one ocean and from the same ocean, the vapours of spirituality have risen and have brought the clouds of spirituality and again they are pouring down as pure vibrations on human beings.
Interviewer: Right, cut that please. 43, well, it ends up, it is such a wonderful centre you have got, this is what you already said, which has got four petals which looks after the pelvic plexus. And now we need to have you continue our magnetism, Shri Ganesha, because you talked about...
Shri Mataji: All right.
Interviewer:...the birds finding their way, Shri Ganesha and Chastity were the three things you wanted to add about.
Shri Mataji: I see. This is the center, but I'll just put it on.
Cameraman: We are okay.
Interviewer: Are running?
Cameraman: Yes, we can start.
Technician: Take one, scene 43.
Shri Mataji: Now, this is the center, surprisingly, is the most important one, because this was the first center created as in the universe. The first thing that was created was purity, innocence. And this is the center of innocence. And the special thing about innocence is that whatever you may try, whatever you may do, whatever sins you may commit, this innocence can be clouded, but cannot be destroyed. This is a very good advantage that this power of innocence is always readily available when you awaken the Kundalini of people. So everybody can get realisation. Now this center has got four petals, and in details I have given many lectures about it. But what is to be understood that innocence is the most important quality, and that's why, whether it's a woman or a man, the chastity is to be worshipped and to be respected. There were people like Freud who were half-baked, and they are the ones who have brought aids and all these experiments. Because whatever human beings have, they think they have every right to experiment with. But this way has proved to be extremely dangerous. People are now suffering from all kinds of problems all over. It may be that it was not their mistake, but definitely it was their ignorance. So one has to decry it and stop it. I told about this long time back. In America that such and such disease will come. Even today people think no end of Freud and still are not understanding what are they after. We are not a sex point. We have to become a super human being, a saint. So to reduce yourself to a sex point or to learn something from animals' sex behaviour is nonsense. Because we have freedom, we should not go into abandonment and know that in no religion it is being preached that you can play with your innocence.
Interviewer: Witness.
Shri Mataji: Witness is all right, doesn't matter. It's all right.
Interviewer: And then you had the idea of people being in the water and being, talking about them coming out of the water into the boat and having a picture of people in the water and getting into a boat and feeling better. That was something to...
Shri Mataji: In the boat they should say, ''Help, help, help''.
Cameraman: Okay, five seconds.
Shri Mataji: If you are in the water...
Technician: Take one, scene 15.
Cameraman: I'm sorry Shri Mataji, can we start again?
Shri Mataji: So sorry. If you are in the water, you are afraid of the waves because you don't know how to swim. But if you are put in a boat then you can see the waves and you enjoy them. But supposing you know swimming, then you can swim and save other people. So this is the state you achieve. Like in a car, we have an accelerator and also a brake. So in the beginning we have to learn how to manage these two. Once we have got that balance, we become a driver. But still the master is sitting behind. But once you get realisation, you become the master. And you see the driver, the brake and the accelerator and you control it completely. You're completely in control with yourself.
Interviewer: Okay cut it.
Shri Mataji: Done?
Technician: Take one, scene...
Shri Mataji: What I am to say?
Interviewer: About the Kundalini being our own Mother, our individual Mother, guiding our ascent and then how Adi Shankaracharya describes her.
Technician: Take one, scene 54.
Shri Mataji: Kundalini is our individual Mother. And as your Mother took all the pains upon herself while giving you realisation, she looks after you and you don't feel anything. Now the awakening of Kundalini and its manifestation has been described by many saints, especially in India, like Kabira, Ganeshvara, has clearly talked about it. But above all, we should say Shri Adi Shankaracharya has beautifully described it. Though we had Markandeya and other people who have also very beautifully given information about that. But Adi Shankaracharya's poetry is beautiful. Same with Ganeshvara, who was a young person who died very early. And who has beautifully described how Kundalini looks like, how She works, in the sixth chapter of his book called as Ganeshwari.
Interviewer: So, right, cut it for a minute, because you...maybe we can separate them if you like.
Shri Mataji: Same thing, I can say it all that, just now.
Interviewer: And this is the time, the last judgement and resurrection, the new Satya-yuga age, prophesied in all the world, great religions. The world is not to be destroyed. Would God who loves us very much give us doomsday and not the resurrection?
Shri Mataji: I think at this point, you stop. Is better. The film should stop at this point.
Interviewer: Ah, Because we've got...
Shri Mataji: No, it's all right. Perfect, all right.
Technician: Take one scene 59 and 60.
Interviewer: Ready?
Cameraman: Yep.
Shri Mataji: I already called it as the blossom time. That means there are so many flowers on the tree of life who are about to become fruits and have become fruits. So the modern times you are called as Kali Yuga have now, come to an end and a new age has started which is called as Krita Yuga. When the All-pervading star power starts working it out is a Krita Yuga that has also started. Which will end up into Satya yoga means the age of truth. So in this Krita Yuga this All-pervading power is going to work out miracles. It is going to work out the Kundalini awakening. It is going to give signs, of its existence. It is going to help people to bring about political changes and also mental attitudes will change. So many things it is going to work out. That's why it is called as Krita Yuga where it will work out. The blossom time is working out and this is the time what we can call as the last judgement. The last judgement where people will be judged through their own Kundalini. You must have seen the picture of Sistine Chapel Done by Michael Angelo and that's exactly is the Kundalini where they have shown Christ standing at Angya chakra. This is the Last Judgement, or in the Quran it is described as the resurrection time, it's Kiyama, as they have Sya in chapter where it is described all about this Kruta yuga. So this Kruta yuga is the special time of judgement, and after the judgement the Satya yoga will come where the people who have known the truth have felt it on their central nervous system, will be in charge of this world and this humanity. This is what is going to happen in the future. Whatever is described by Bhagavani is already happening and the way there are so many political changes taking place so dramatically and so fast. One should expect a very beautiful world by the end of this century of people who feel each other, love each other and who abide in the Kingdom of God with the discipline of Ramaraj.
Interviewer: Cut it.
Shri Mataji: This will, when will you ask this question? At the end of it?
Interviewer: I don't know yet, I think we'll have to find, to see when it is all together. Where it best goes in.
Shri Mataji: Just before the end.
Interviewer: Yes, probably.
Shri Mataji: Just before the end.
Interviewer: It's like a climax.
Shri Mataji: Oh.
Interviewer: Are we rolling?
Technician: We are rolling.
Interviewer: Better call this 68a at the moment.
Technician: Take one, 68a.
Interviewer: Okay...
[End of recording]