Lunch and Public Program 1982-08-23
Current language: English, list all talks in: English
23 August 1982
Public Program
Temple de la Fusterie, Geneva (Switzerland)
Talk Language: English | Transcript (English) – VERIFIED
Public Program Day 1. Temple Fusterie, Geneva (Switzerland), 23 August 1982.
I bow to all the seekers of truth. It is such a great fortune that I should be given this opportunity to face so many seekers of truth in this international city of Geneva. There has been never such times, such great times, where you have seekers who were just trying to find out the truth, the self-knowledge, the Spirit, and were not satisfied with anything else. This seeking that has come today is so much exposed and manifesting. It is the work of thousands of years of the seers and prophets. In this materialistic advancement, when we have gone too far, the Tree of Life has grown too much and it must find its source to sustain itself.
With this background, we are here today to know about the truth that we have to find within ourselves. All the scriptures, whether it is Bible, Koran, or any Indian scripture, even Lao Tse or if we go to Zen or Buddha, Mahavira, all of them have said that you are to be reborn. Those who have talked about the rebirth, traditionally, I think in India people have really worked very deeply, in meditative way, to find out what are we to find.
The existence of this primordial power within ourselves - called as Kundalini, in the triangular bone - was known to ancient seers for thousands of years. This is not a new knowledge which I am telling you about. You'll be surprised that the bone is called as "sacrum", which means sacred. When I went to Greece, I tried to find out why they called this bone as "sacrum" and I was amazed to hear from them that they had a report with Indo-Aryan groups of people coming there and talking to them about this power.
This happened much, much before Alexander went to India. Now, it is for us to see if in other scriptures, also, it is mentioned. In the Bible, they have mentioned about the Tree of Life. This is the Tree of Life which you see here, which Moses saw, which he talked about. Then, it is said that you will be comforted in such a way that you will know my Father, forever, said by Christ. The sentence that Calvin used, was that "their work will tell you".
We have to understand why this was so important that "their work will tell you". In the Koran it is said - all the future things they have said about themselves: "your hands will speak". In the Koran they have talked of the resurrection time that will come, when your hands will speak.
Now, let us come to the point – of "work will tell". Now, we understand work as human beings, as we are. But what is the specialty of the work that Christ was talking about? If you think that for collecting money for the poor was the work, that was done even much before Christ. Or, if going to the churches and talking to God or praying to God was the work, then it was done before and even today we can do it.
If asceticism was the work one had to do, it's done in many countries, even today. If the Laws of Sharia which are followed these days in the Islamic countries, which are described in the Levi of the Bible in the second chapter, then if they were to be done, they were, or they are, already done. What is the specialty of the work that will be done today, when it was said that "their work will tell"? Man can do work on physical level, can do on mental level, can do on emotional level. But he cannot do work on spiritual level unless and until the Spirit shines through him. And when the Spirit shines, what should happen to us? For the first time, you start doing the living work.
For example, we cannot transform a flower into a fruit. So many living things are done everyday, we see, which we cannot do. In the human body itself, when a child is conceived, according to the laws of nature it should be expelled immediately because it's a foreign body. But not that it is kept there, it is nourished, it is looked after, it is protected and the right time: it is thrown out of the body. Who does this work, is the point. We take these things for granted. For us, our evolution from amoeba to this state is taken for granted. Why not the scientists answer a question: why we are made human beings? What's the specialty? Why should we have not been left as amoeba only?
So, we come to the conclusion that there has to be a purpose of our being human beings and all this work has been done by some power, which is beyond human power. This power is the All-pervading Power of Divine Love. This Power is the one which coordinates everything, sorts out everything, which is so organized that sitting down here, if you know this Power, you can know about another person. But so far, we are not connected with this Divine Power. This yoga has not taken place. The Spirit that resides in the heart is not in our attention. On our central nervous system, we cannot feel it.
So, there is some sort of a transition into which we are. We have not achieved our full, full meaning, our full understanding about ourselves, the complete self-knowledge. So, we have to know that there is something that has to happen within us, which is a living thing. Because our evolution is a living happening. Dead things don't evolve. Is the living things that have evolved.
In the Bible it is said that He is the living God. Perhaps we have not been able to see what it means that He is a living God, means that He does all the living work. So, now, the work that you will have to show and do is not some sort of a dead work. Like: a tree dies and you make a furniture or you get these stones from somewhere, building is erected. Is all dead work. From dead to dead. But, it is the living work that you have to do. So, something more has to happen within us, so we do this living work. It is all within ourselves. It is only [disturbance in the crowd]. This is satanic. Is he drunk? Don't disturb, I will allow you to ask questions later. Be decent. Don't argue. Hello, hello. Hello, mister, just a minute please. Don't lose your temper. Sit down. Be decent and you have to be a decent man. It is indecency. No, no, no, it is indecency, it is indecency. What is he saying? What is he talking [UNCLEAR about]? Oh, I am just telling you about Christ. Let me come to Christ now. Does he know Christ more than I know? I am coming to Christ. You see, he has no patience. He must learn from Christ, how much patience he has. I am here to tell you all about Christ, what else? He doesn't know anything about Christ. Just saying this is only Christ, Christ. Christ is not going to recognize such people!
Christ has said himself in the second chapter of Mathews in the second verse, "You will be calling me, 'Christ, Christ' and I will not know who you are". In these four years of his little time that human beings gave him, how much he has warned you! But one thing, at least, one should learn: to have patience and understanding.
So, here we are. We have to do the living work. And how do we do the living work? So that, we should feel that this is something very different from others. For example, somebody is dead and we feel the pulsation of that person and there is no pulsation, we say he is dead. Now: it pulsates. Means : it lives. So, the first thing that happens to you that you see: there is a pulsation. You see actually the pulsation of the Kundalini in the triangular bone. And you see the pulsation rising, with a stethoscope: you can see the pulsation rising up to the head here. And when the pulsation rises here, then gradually it dies out and you find the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost coming out of your head, your own head!
Then, for the first time you start feeling the All-pervading Power of the Holy Ghost as cool breeze around. So that you become subtler. And to become this subtle thing, the God Almighty has placed all this within you. If there is no connection with Him or with Christ, what's the use of talking to Him? Those who talk of Christ and Christ and [UNCLEAR]: what have they done as far as religion is concerned? Is not the buildings; is not the organization that Christ wanted. He wanted: you are to be born again!
There are some people in America who believe they are born again already; they are selfcertified born again. This happening is the actualization of your baptism. It is not an artificial thing. The authority has to come from God and not from any other place that you can baptize people because you should see [UNCLEAR] being baptized, actually, it should happen to you.
All right, today you are following certain dogmas. Go on following, but a day will come when people will ask you: "This is all artificial". They are all intelligent people. Today the young people are so intelligent. They are going to question you and they are going to question God. They are going to deny that.
I can give you a concrete example that in Algeria, the people, young people, started feeling that there cannot be God because these fanatics that are around cannot be representing God. So, there cannot be God. So, let us become Communists. Their fanaticism is so blatant and so open that you can see the fundamentalists are fanatics but fanaticism can be very, very sophisticated. And then, you'd be surprised, one of them came to London, got his Realization. When he got his Realization, he went back and told all the young people who were thinking, they had already formed an organization, communist organization, he said: "There is God". And he himself got five hundred people realized.
Do you follow that the existence of God itself is challenged today and we have to prove the existence on actualization and not in talking and doing all the blah, blah, blah? We have to give them concrete example, concrete actual facts.
Now, how it happens is the thing that I am going to tell you tomorrow but I must talk about Christ because the gentleman has already been thinking that Christ is in his pocket! The way he talked about Christ!
When I tell you about it, you need not accept me blindful, not at all, but you should keep yourself open. Christ exists within ourselves in a very small point, there: on the optic chiasma, in a very subtle point called, in Sanskrit language, as Agnya Chakra. Now, if it comes from Sanskrit, it doesn't mean it's Indian, because they knew about Christ fourteen thousand years before you could know. Markandeya, who existed fourteen thousand years before Christ, we can say, or maybe twelve thousand years before Christ, has written a book called "Devi Mahatmya", is the holy importance of the Goddess, in which he has described Christ, very clearly. He is called as Maha Vishnu.
All his formation, how He was formed and how the Immaculate Conception took place, all these details are there. Is described, most of His life, the details about it, even up to the point that He will be the support of the whole Universe. But the people who went from here, who were talking of Christ, never told them that Maha Vishnu was born. They were such closed-minded people. They did not want to know about Him from any other source. Also, they went there, the kind of Christ they presented was horrifying. In one hand they had the gun and another hand they had the Bible.
Many people, till today, believe that Christ was born in England or in Switzerland. They converted poor people by giving them money, making it so cheap, the whole thing. They converted people by just putting some bread there. All these tricks they played and the poor Indians did not know what it was like. It was more a sort of a material [UNCLEAR].
Christ himself has said that "Those who are not against me are with me". Who are "those"? It is said in the Bible that, "I'll appear before you like tongues of flames". Who can explain this? Except that when you see this Kundalini rising you can see these chakras burning like beautiful flames. Christ was the embodiment of innocence which came on this earth. He was the Logos. He was the First Son. He was the Brahma. And when He came on this earth, He tried to talk to human beings who were insane. But they can be forgiven because they were not realized souls.
Now, he is placed within us at the Agnya Chakra because that's a cross there and He was specially made for a very special job: to cross through that suppressed point. When a man starts growing, human beings: they start developing their ego. And whatever conditioning they have: is the superego. We can say, in other terms, that they are their karmas and their sins. Now, when these two things meet on the fontanelle bone area, calcification takes place and you form your "I"-ness, that you are Mr. So and Mr. So.
When the Kundalini rises and she passes through this point then she sucks-in both these balloon-like structures of ego and superego. That means you get rid of your sufferings and of your karma, of your actions. Now, between these two, when they meet each other, there's no space at all. So they have to put the embodiment of innocence itself, the embodiment of the Brahma itself, there, just when Kundalini rises, that it can just suck-in these two things in our heads, which are causing this ignorance.
So, when He said "all of you have to pass through the same gate", this was He was meaning that, when you get your realization, the Kundalini has to pass through the same Agnya Chakra, to awaken Christ within you.
Now, if we want to see if there is Christ or not, we can verify on [UNCLEAR] with our vibrations. Because, when the Kundalini stops here, at this head, we have to say Lord's Prayer. It is a mantra; it's a chanting. The person who is a realized soul has to say - not the person who is seeking realization, but the person who is a realized soul - has to say the Lord's Prayer, which is a mantra, which is not to be challenged, which works out, and you find Christ opening this gate and you find the Kundalini passing through very beautifully.
So the message of Christ is of resurrection and not of His crucifixion that we have to suffer. He has already suffered for us. Do you want Him to suffer more? Did He not suffer
sufficiently enough for us that we should suffer anymore for our spiritual growth?
His message is of joy and of rejoicing and not of crying and [UNCLEAR] with despair.
When the Kundalini rises and opens the Agnya Chakra you can see clearly that there is a depression in your head. Actually, you can see with your eyes there is a depression in your head as you had in your childhood. Absolutely, you can see it clearly. If there is somebody, a bald-headed gentleman, who can see the sucking of these, clearly, with your own eyes. If you are truly honest to yourself, you should know that you haven't yet found that, and if so: we should find it because it is your own. It's your own property.
It's all your own. There's nothing that I am going to do much about it except that I, like an enlightened light, I can enlighten another light and then you can enlighten another light.
There was a lady who told me that she thinks she is already a realized soul. If I believe that I have a lot of money in the bank here in Geneva, will I be able to cash my checks? I have to be sure about my bank account. In the same way, to live in the myth that "I am this. I am that" is not good for you.
After realization, you become collectively conscious. You become. It's not just "Oh, I believe in it. I believe". It just happens to you that you start feeling another person on your fingertips. Your hands start speaking, your hands speak, you know what's wrong with another person and also you know what's wrong with you, within yourself, what centers are catching within you, the subtle centers that are there. And when this happens, you are sure about it, what's happening; but only this is to be decoded and you are to be told that what does this finger say.
For example, a person had asthma and he came to us and we asked him "Have you got asthma"? So, he said "How do you know? Oh, because I was drinking heavily", he said. Then I said "What about your father?" "Oh, I am not talking to him. I have nothing to do with him. He is a hopeless fellow. I don't want to have anything to do". Now, can you believe that if your fatherhood is challenged, you can get asthma? Whether your relationship with your children or relationship with your father are in little bit topsy turvy way, then there is a problem of asthma, can come. Even if the father has died without seeing you and there is a feeling left in you mind, "I couldn't meet my father", you may get the problem. If the child dies and the father feels, "Oh, I lost my child", also you might get the problem.
Say, if there are ten children who are born realized and if you ask them to put their hands towards a seeker they will put up the same finger saying, "This is the trouble" because it will burn and they will feel the burning on the finger. Absolutely all of them will feel the same finger. But you find out from that person, whether he has any throat trouble or he smokes or he talks too much: the right side of his Vishuddhi Chakra is catching, you'll be amazed, he'll say "one of them are very true".
For example, the gentleman who was shouting just now is really anti-Christ, because his center of the Agnya, this center of Christ, was caught. That, supposing a person has got ego and if you tell him "you have got ego", he'll hit you hard. But, when you get realization, you see this [UNCLEAR thing] catching, you know its ego, you come and tell me, "Mother, my ego is horrible. Please cure it". Because, after realization, you become the Spirit, you can see your ego, superego, like a clock we see, when it's taken out. We are not identified anymore with them. We are identified with the Spirit. Once this happens, the maladies disappear, automatically.
We had a boy, just like this one, I remember, in Brighton, who came all drunk and he was shouting at Me something, I didn't hear much. So, I told him, "All right, don't shout just now. Go home, sleep and come and see Me tomorrow". And I gave him the realization next day. He left his drink. I never told him anything. Because if you find the nectar in your life, why do you go to anything like that, to alcoholism?
So, why should we bother as to what habits we have got or what wrong we have done, because in the West I find everybody has only one great problem: is that they feel guilty for nothing at all. All the time they are feeling guilty. For what? I don't know from where this mind has come to tell you that you are guilty, you have done this wrong, that wrong. Actually, we have complicated our lives so much. We are not simple people. Even if we put a spoon this way you'll feel guilty. "Oh, God! I put the spoon that way!".
In the eyes of God, you are not guilty. You haven't done anything. Why are you guilty in your own eyes? Why are you judging yourself like this? This is the biggest problem. I always find in the Western mind that is all the time indulging into a mythical guilt. It is in England, it is in Switzerland. You go anywhere up to India; everywhere you find it. But Indian never feels guilty, only if they murder someone, they are another limit!
So, one has to know that we are just ready to have it and we should get it. It's an actualization which has to work out within ourselves. For that, you don't need any lecture as such. With children, I don't need any lecture. It just works out. But, with grown-up people have, you see, built up yarns after yarns of our own understanding everything. So, I have to little bit uncoil it, so that you come to your logical conclusion, that the essential thing is to be the Spirit.
Now, you have denied Christ when He came here. Is a fact. It was stupidity. Now, please don't deny Him again.
I have no surplus to give you; I have no buildings to show you, nothing! You are my temple and the Christ is within you. Only the light has to shine through; that's all. Of course, it goes without saying, that you cannot pay for it. It's absurd. I mean, I just don't know how to explain this point that you can't pay for these nonsensical ideas have come onto us that we can pay for God. God doesn't know any money. He doesn't know banking. I must tell you this.
What do we pay for? Is all human-made things we pay, not for God's things. Did we pay anything to become human beings from monkeys? It is all effortless. Also, you cannot put in an effort. Some people think: standing on your head, you can get to God. I mean, imagine, how can it be? So many animals do that morning till evening. Are they going to get to God?
Even eating this kind of food, that kind of food, will get to God; it's not so. Only thing, your health may be all right, because of the kind of food that you eat, but that cannot get to Spirit, which is beyond material things. If vegetarianism is going to give you God, then all the cows of Switzerland should go to God much before than you can go. So, in this way you will understand that all these ideas are just self-destroying. Even the self-indulgence is also self-destroying. Too much thinking is much more self-destroying than anything else. And too much planning is much worse.
I will tell about this center tomorrow to you, what happens to us when we live in the futuristic way. And then you will realize that the way we are always thinking, actually we are harming ourselves, morning till evening. And the balance has to be established before you get your realization. All the religions came on this Earth just to give you a balance, to tell you about the sustenance, which is important: is the quality of human beings, how we have to be. They were all living flowers on the Tree of Life which were plucked by everyone saying "This is mine. This is mine" and when they became dry and ugly, we are shocked [UNCLEAR].
The best way to know about yourself is to go to your enemies. For example, if Christians goes to Jew, they will know, they will feel that the Jews are the only safe ones; we are all going to be doomed. Then the Jews should go to the Muslims to find out about them and the Muslims should go to Hindus to find out about them. All are living in a myth, I feel, and I really sometimes don't know how to convince them that please, be facing your reality, which is the [UNCLEAR ... one]. Be prepared to face the reality which is so beautiful, that is within you. Please face it.
So, it is, is not very serious. You have to be cheerful, not to feel guilty at all. You see, if I have said something that upsets you, please don't be upset. Forget it. Only thing you have to do is a very simple thing, that you should know your own glory, that you are the temple of God. Do not condemn yourself. At all! You ask Me for the real and not for unreal things. For example, somebody's sick. Let him get his realization; he will be completely cured. Everybody can be cured with realization. The people who got realization in Geneva, you can ask them. They never go to doctors anymore and doctors should not mind that.
Today is the first day, I would like you to ask Me questions, but not in a way the fellow was frantic and mad. There's no need to be frantic with Me, because I cannot get frantic at any cost. So, please ask Me a question, in a proper decent decorum way that behoves a good citizen of a good country. Now, for example, if somebody like that wants to give a lecture, he can arrange himself and have people and talk to them. I have no objections for that. But when we have arranged this with a purpose, it should be such, that people who have come here for a purpose should not be disturbed. In all civil sense, it is so. What am I doing? I am not doing anything wrong, am I? So, please ask Me questions. I have no objection to that. I will be very happy to answer your questions before we start the realization.
[Aside remarks in the hall...]
[Shri Mataji] ...If you could open the door, the vibrations [UNCLEAR]... Little loudly, alright... Can you hear Me?... What is it?... Alright, just a minute, that's alright, now be decent about it, sit down, we've understood, sit down... What is the question?... [yogini] The question is that [UNCLEAR this gentleman says that] Christ said on the cross that "Everything is accomplished" so, what is now this Realization? [Shri Mataji] ... is accomplished? When did he say that? [yogini] No, he said "Everything is accomlished" and then He died.
[Shri Mataji] It's wrong. He cannot say that. I don't believe it. Now, this is a misunderstanding. "Everything is accomplished": when He said so, is correct. Is accomplished as far as He was concerned. You should not sort of try to mislead people with that. You see, this is the trouble: people try to fix up everything like that. For example, now see what is the thing that Christ has said when he was at the cross when he was dying. He said that "Everything is now accomplished." He came on this Earth to play this drama of crucifixion because people were so stupid and idiotic, because he rode the donkey to show that, and he said, "Everything is accomplished". He was meaning that He had accomplished the work that for which He has come, is to suffer for you people.
[Yogi speaks in French to the public]
[Disturbance in the crowd ]
[Shri Mataji][UNCLEAR] Just a minute. Just a minute I have not finished as yet. [UNCLEAR] He has no patience of Christ. Sit down. Just a minute. Sit down now. Sit down. Sit down. [UNCLEAR]
Now, to believe that He has accomplished everything, that nothing is to be done, what have you got out of it? What have you done yourself? You ask yourself. You face yourself. Bible is not going to support you. You face yourself and tell Me what have you done yourself in life. Have you been able to get rid of all your temptations? Can you say that you are a perfect man? Is it? Let's see what have you accomplished yourself. Let's see. [UNCLEAR sit down]
[UNCLEAR That lady should sit down. They are very impatient. You are not Christians at all. Have patience. Please sit down, madam. Andre, let me talk to them. Just a minute, madam. Please sit down. I have not yet asked for you. Now.] Impatience, you see, like jack in the box. Without any knowledge, without any knowledge they talk. Now let us see another point. Now this is why people say, let's see why people say that Christ has said "everything is accomplished". It's an escape. That's the best way. Christ has accomplished for us so we just take the Bible, go around, we are all right. This is an escape.
Now, one thing, sit down please. Just a minute, I have not finished answering you. Just a minute. Now, why people do this, is another denial. You see, they'll will find out things by which they will deny the truth. They want to deny the truth and that's everywhere.
Now, the question is – just a minute madam, just a minute. You are very clever people. Just sit. Now listen to Me. [UNCLEAR Just a minute, just a minute, please, I'll give you a chance. No hurry. Sit down, sit down, sit down. I'll ask you to [UNCLEAR] (laughter). Now listen now. Now just a minute, madam, just a minute please. Will you please let me tell you this subject fully.]
[UNCLEAR Now what happens? Now this is the one point.] Now, the Muslims say that Mohammed was the last Prophet, all right? So they have a right to rule over everyone. Now, what we achieved that by accepting certain things, make believe, have we achieved something in our awareness? Let us face it out. You see, we should find out: have we achieved anything in our own awareness; let us see with our own eyes.
Then why Christ said, "I will send you a Comforter," if He had completely accomplished?
Why did he say that He will send you a Redeemer and why did He say He will send you a Counselor? He must be shocked, the way people - in His name - have created such barriers against truth itself.
Now the second question, please.
[Lady in the audience talking]
All right, just put it in short, madam. You see, some people ask questions just to show off they are there. Don't do like that. Just ask a precise question. Yes, yes, but that doesn't mean you take everybody's time, madam.
There is a group of people who have come here to disturb us. This is satanic, absolutely satanic to have a group there. Sit down. Will you please behave yourself now.
You see what I am saying? For that you must have some patience and you must come to Me. I will tell you how we are saved and how you can do His work.
Don't you show the Bible. When they say by giving Bible to someone they can cure alcoholism, can they? That's a group there. You cannot do anything. I have cured the cancer of the President of India in ten minutes. Can you do that by talking about Christ? Because you are not connected with Christ. I am connected. Better write to him and find out. Tell them to write to him to find out. He's there. You'll find out in ten minutes.
Now, by talking like this about Christ what have you achieved yourself? You tell Me. I am asking you a question, madam. What have you achieved yourself as far as you are concerned? No, no, just tell me what have you achieved. Have you been able to convince somebody to give up even a drug addiction? Have you been? But, that's something once in a while.
[Lady in the audience talking]
Nobody is interested in you. Who is interested in her? Is there somebody? You all just say no, no. You just say no to her and she is all right. We are not interested in you. You go away. We know why you are here. Will you please now go away? You are very indecent.
No, you can't. You can't.
[UNCLEAR Give him a flower. [disturbance in the crowd] No, not for you. This place is not for you. You can't use, I am sorry. You have no business to have this showmanship at our cost. We have come here. We have got this hall. You have no business to have a showmanship at our cost.] Please be humble like that. Christ would not behave like this. Get out. Talking of Christ and behaving like brutes. Imagine! This is Geneva! This is Geneva! Very sad, very sad.
At least, thank God that there is Khomeini to show them. He says the same way. He talks like that. He has message for the whole world. All right, go, go.
Will you please ask this lady to go away? It is our right to have you here or not. Please go. Just ask them to get out. Will you please get out? There is a bhoot there. [UNCLEAR please give them a bandan) You should not disturb others. Please, if you don't want it, go away. Nobody is forcing you. Will you go away? You should not try to aggress other people. You are very aggressive for Christians.] Better call the police.
[Disturbance in the crowd]
[UNCLEAR]
But those who are honest to themselves, must know that the book reading is not going to give you Christ, by any chance. Christ never read any book. And logically also one can understand, if God is for everyone then He cannot be only for people who can read. You are very nicely settled in a very nice affluent country but I am sorry to say that you lack all the culture that we have in a poor country like India. If these people want to meet Me I'll be very happy. They can come and have a cup of tea and talk to Me and tell Me what they think about it. But this is very aggressive and very indecent to behave. Where there are three, four people who have come with the idea of disturbing, it's very destructive.
Christ is the one who controls your ego but what I found that these people are very ego-oriented. Because they can read Bible they think they can do what they like! That shows that these people who aggress have not imbibed Christianity. It's only the books that they know in their heads that's all not in their hearts!
Now, at least I hope they'll behave like decent people and sit quietly. If they want, they can hire this hall and do what teaching they want. They can preach but they should not aggress somebody who is not doing anything wrong to you. I have not done wrong to anyone so far. Always the fanatics have always attacked the saints, no doubt about it. Everywhere, in every country, they are attacking. Because they believe in a book but not in their hearts. There is nothing like in the heart. But still you must forgive because they are naive, they are blind, they can't see. What can you do about it?
I am sorry, because I am too simple to [UNCLEAR] and that's why [UNCLEAR] people jump on Me. [1:39:24]