BBC Interview 1980-03-17
Current language: English, list all talks in: English
17 March 1980
Interview
London (England)
Talk Language: English | Transcript (English) - Reviewed
BBC Interview. London, England. 17 March 1980.
Interviewer: I would like to welcome everybody but particularly I want to have word before we do start the afternoon interview with some of the faithful letter writers who write in to me and have different opinions about some of my public programs for people that I interview who have different points of view from the main stream of Christian thinking of radio 74. there those of you have written to me and said, I do not like anything that is not oh, let’s say it loose terms born again Christianity and I don’t think Christian station or anyone the call itself Christian should have any other kind of ideas there, others of you who right into say I understand that you have to be tolerate it because you’re the only English language station and it would get pretty rough for you if you weren’t tolerate and so therefore I accept this is some kind of a grudging condescension to people of other points of view. Then I have and this I a value very much. I have had several business men who have said to me, I cannot stand religious programs and I never listen to such and they turn me off completely except on the ones that you run because you never. Try and sell me anything. You always say, listen here’s another point of view or had how do you like this? How does this strike you? Or would you believe this? or you just be said listen something beautiful and they say therefore I really enjoy for the first time listening to the various people point of view about god, about heaven, about nature of man and about why were all gathered you together on this earth? What we’re working toward? And why? How? who? And could it be any better. So today those of you who truly dislike hearing anything about, those eternal questions that does not confined itself to your own Spector of belief I sincerely and with great love invite you to turn off your radio and go out, walk in the garden , or look at the clouds or do something else make a cake to give it to somebody in beautiful gesture, but this is not your place because today we have with us someone who I’m very eager to hear, I feel that I going to learn many many things, that I have never know before . A woman whose name is Shri Mataji
Shri Mataji: Mataji Nirmala Devi it’s my full name.
Interviewer: Shri Mataji and she has had some publicity in Geneva before which was rather controversial which she did not it like and did not want and I think that, I’ll be speaking which just a little Hyde Park a corner here in this lovely corner of the haute bavois. That it should be a privilege to listen to someone who has a message that we can decide very quietly within ourselves with love and with reflection and with objectivity, whether we find something we find something in there to take into our hearts and use it. I feel obliged to say this so thst we are on the tape so that you won’t try and call in today it would not be possible. We will have an open time another day and you will then be able to call in if you have something to say, but could you join me now in a very cordial in a very special welcome to Shri Mataji. A great Welcome to you.
Shri Mataji: Thank you so much
Interviewer: In the country of India I know that there is much talk the word enlightenment is used in a way that perhaps we of this world don’t completely understand, with that we please to start that your talk to a little bit about enlightenment and going to your speech.
Shri Mataji: Yes, India has a special advantage over other countries. As far as the nature is concert because the nature of our country such a that people don’t have to worry so much of combating the nature. It’s a warm country and it has a very fertile country and it doesn’t required too much for you to exist in that place because even you can even exist under tree. It can lead a very very simple life in India and you need not have all the elaborations we need here to fight the nature. As a result of time many people who were quite satisfied with their mundane l ife took to deeper seeking. Thousands of years back that country where they wanted to find out the secret of life and they wanted to know why we are on this earth and why we have to go on existing like that? Is there any greater purpose of our being here?
And such a people having able to discover something very great and that what they called it as an enlightenment that we have to have. But I would say it not only that the Christians have talk about it. Indians have talked, Christians have talked then Islamic religion has talked, of course Moses has talked, everybody talk about it that you have to become a spirit.
Interviewer: That you have to become the spirit?
Shri Mataji: You to be born again of the spirit.
Interviewer: Of the spirit, and this is a common trend through all religions.
Shri Mataji: But, the difference between the Indian life and the western life is basically what? And that is, that we believe that all our efforts should be that to be a the spirit in India. And outside it is not so, that all of the effort should be that is not so. Secondly there is one more point which is very very subtle and if you understand little that in India religion is not organized, so that it is not brought to the artificial level, if you have to become spirit then it has to be the living process, by the living force of Evolution. So you cannot just brand somebody, you cannot say that you are that. This is the problem, why here the people can become Christian without getting the proper experience so being Christian or they can be Muslim without become a really the Muslim. The really to become something is a happening with in us which comes through evolutionary process of a living process of a living God, which everybody has talked of. Now why the people have organized religion here? this I cannot explain. Because they are organizing everything in the West perhaps I’m also organizing god. But in India they understand that you cannot organiz it. It’s a happening that has to happen and because thousands of years back people have been looking into it. So they know what to expect when you are enlightened. What happens to you? what happens to your consciousness? They know that your consciousness has to change that you have to be at a higher consciousness and that is called as “Samuhik chetana” means collective consciousness.
Interviewer: And that can be universal? Good collective consciousness and a universal....
Shri Mataji: Yes, that you become a part and parcel of that whole you become in the sense that you have the consciousness in your central nervous system, and you can feel the other person. For example supposing I can feel you, I can feel your centers, then you are not the other, you are me, Then there is no other. This is a happening which is a reality, which is not just a position nor a mental projection or an organization.
Interviewer: Is this in any way the equivalent like in Christian Science they speak of one mind in the universe?
Shri Mataji: Of course the same, of course the same. In India Christ is a respected as Mahavishnu. It describes thousands of years back. Even before he came to this earth he is described there. But you see people never connected in India Christ with Mahavishnu because the image we got of Christ was very funny.
Interviewer: How was that?
Shri Mataji: First of all the image we got that we can get converted that is absurd for us. Because how we can get convert it. See by branding to somebody how you can become better?
Interviewer: How you become better?
Shri Mataji: Just you brand somebody. Supposing I said, I am the governor, where do I become governor? You see becoming part is missing, so we couldn’t understand what sort of Christ this must be who just sent these people just to brand us something like a Christian. And then secondly another image we had of Christ was that he is the one who talks of the spirit and nothing else. So the people who have to do the work of Christ have to give enlightenment. They are to be enlightened people.
Interviewer: And this enlightenment is truly becoming one with the whole, with the whole. Now does this have anything to do with what I understand as Nirvana or eventually rising so high in consciousness that you become a blend like a drop of water which blends into the ocean.
Shri Mataji: Yes. It is the same thing.
Interviewer: So you eventually would loose your individuality.
Shri Mataji: No, not your individuality, but it is like (you see) the tree if you see every leaf is different.
Interviewer: yes.
Shri Mataji: But it is supplied by same source. If the leaf become conscious of the source, it doesn’t leave its identity, but it’s consciousness of the source and it nourish by the source.
Interviewer: And then being conscious of the source and putting your...
Shri Mataji: is being enlightened
Interviewer: Conscious of source is being enlightened?
Shri Mataji: Yes. On the central nervous system. Conscious doesn’t mean mental. On the central nervous system you should feel the force flowing through your fingers.
Interviewer: That is maybe equivalent to something in Christianity where some days you say, I feel today and I’ am so mucb in grace.
Shri Mataji: Yes, but it is not today. Once you have it you have it. But it’s not today. In Christianity, Christianity is nothing but enlightenment. True Christianity, again I say true Christianity. This is true baptism which I am talking about where you actually see the rising of the force from sacrum bone with your naked eyes which pulses through reaches your fontanel bone area at top of your head and gives you baptism so that you can feel cool breeze of Holy Ghost coming out of your head. Actually you see that.
Interviewer: How do you feel that? How does it happen
Shri Mataji: It happens spontaneously. It has to be a living process. How this living thing happened? Supposing you ask me a question, how does a seed sprout? What will I say, you put it into moth er earth.and it sprouts. I will tell you the history about consciousness if you follow it, that first of all, you see it was masculine development of the consciousness like extroversion like you can say going outward like the tree growing too much, that sort of thing and all this things have developed so much have gone to an extent now that it has to stop. Now what is second part of it? Now as you see in world there is feminine consciousness coming into play. Of course in wrong way may be like a pendulum, it is a rebellion. They are going to rebellion which is nonsense, you see and may be that as they are acting just like a men and thinking that they are sort of achieving something raise in consciousness is wrong. But you have to do consciousness always moves spirally higher whenever you become a from one to another, you are born at a higher consciousness. So this is rebellion. I’m talking of revolution that has taken place. Now this revolution only takes place, when this masculine development which achieves it’s nourishment from the feminine part. see from the womb, from the mother earth, you see so far we exploiting the mother earth, creating all kinds of problems the men as they have done it. Now they have to take next step, and this is the time where the force that I am telling you which is called as “Kundalini”.It represents the womb, it represents the feminine personality which rises?. Is called as also “kumbha” which you called Aquarius. It represents the Aquarius and that’s why this is the age of the Aquarius. Where this Kundalini rises and she gives you the realization. First, human beings had to be developed up to this stage as you are and then this Kundalini had to rise. So the time has come. The blossom time has come all this described in Bible also.
Interviewer: How? , Where?
Shri Mataji: of course, that will say the Comforter will come. Christ has talked of the future. He didn’t say that I’ve stopped the everything now, the Comforter has to come and the Redeemer has to come and the Counsellor has to come. Then he has also talked, John has said that, he has seen, visions and all those things are there. So Now, what has Comforter has to do? What are the quantities of the womb in Comforter is the Counsellor?
Interviewer: So you feel that the opening of this consciousness is now coming at the end of the age of the fish and going into the Age of Aquarius that everything is changing.
Shri Mataji: Of course, that is what it is. And it has to change. Because what happens when you become collectively conscious. I mean it’s a thing now you have become human being. So now you become human being your consciousness is a different from that of animal. For example, animal if you put near dirty lake, he can pass through it but human being cannot. Because he has an another consciousness. Now this consciousness is so much higher that you become collectively consciousness about which Jung has talked a lot about collective being. And this is what actual happening. It is the actualisation that you should expect. And this is the difference between the western organized religions and the eastern an unorganized. Where individuals have to find something for betterment of the whole.
Interviewer: But I understand that there are temples in India to Various built or different state of consciousness. And so how is that not organized?
Shri Mataji: You see, that is not organized. These are built by people around the just the, the village people just organized one temple and have it there and they have their own things, no problem at all.