Compass ABC TV Interview 1991-04-15
Current language: English, list all talks in: English
15 April 1991
Interview
Canberra (Australia)
Talk Language: English | Transcript (English) – Draft
TV Interview, Canberra, Australia, April, the 15th, 1991
Shri Mataji: Yes, it’s not necessary [about the mike].
[Marathi]
You can hear Me otherwise, can’t you?
Sahaja Yogis: Yes, yes, Mother.
Shri Mataji: I wanted to thank you all for coming to the airport. I know you would not stop coming whatever I may tell you. And everywhere is just the same but when I left the people in Canberra, I was sad because after a year, I’ll meet them but then to see you all here again, I felt all right. It always happens like that specially for children; They grow so much in one year and still they remember Me very well. You have to be careful about them and look after them well. They’re all very sweet and beautiful. I’m going to see this preschool year how it is working for small children. I know the atmosphere in Australia is not very congenial for children’s growth. Firstly, is this drug business, it’s too much.
So, you’ve to be very careful with your children. You must talk to them, you must look after them, you must know what they are doing, where are they going. Keep company with them, make friends with them. You should find out what are their friends are like – not to curb down their freedom or their sense of self-respect should not be challenged. But you can tell them that you are Sahaja Yogis and you are great. Also, you should warn them about these things because there’s a big attack on the innocence, I think, from every angle. They’re trying on these children and using them for something very dangerous.
I was surprised that in Miami, 12 years children were carrying pistols in their hands and killing people, you see. So, we have to be now very careful. There are some negative forces just starting a kind of a destruction of the innocence and you have to be careful where they go, what are their interests are. Try to talk to them all the time. It is always a worry to Me about them because you both are working sometimes. Then somebody else should look after the child.
Don’t leave the child alone. First thing is to look after the child for any mother and then the job. You can reduce lot of your expenses by that. Say, if you have to go to a job, you have to wear dresses every day, you have to go a hairdresser – all these things can be reduced, and enjoy looking after your children, at least till they are grown up enough to understand what is good for them and what is bad for them. And you can never forgive yourself if your child gets ruined because of neglect. It’s nice now you are Sahaja Yogis and you understand what these children are. They are special children you have and you understand their value.
Also, for all of you, I find such beautiful faces like flowers. We have to understand that you have got this Divine power now within you. It’s flowing through you but you have to give it to others. Unless and until the tree grows, it cannot go deeper and then when you go deeper into yourself, you’ll find that this Divinity is waiting just to give you a greater understanding of yourself and about the problems of the world.
You understand that this transformation is so important and all of you have to work it out in your own lives. It’s not how many books you read about Divine, it’s not about how many lectures you listen to about Sahaja Yoga, it is what you practise!
You have to practise righteousness, you have to practise kindness, you have to practise sharing with others. And always introspect yourself – that’s very important. As the Russians are very introspective, you have to introspect to see, “Why am I doing this, what is the necessity to do this?” And as you have the light within you, you can see it clearly.
There are many superficial things, superfluous thing which we do. We hurt each other as a matter of habit sometimes. Try to find out, don’t feel guilty, just face it. It’s so nice to love someone without any reward, without any expectations – just to love in the pure way. As it is, I am so happy to see that such pure relations exist among all of you. Absolutely, I have not seen anyone, sort of, carrying on with somebody’s wife or somebody’s sister or something. And that you have such nice married life and such beautiful children to look after.
So, family is a very great thing for Sahaja Yoga. The family unit has to be absolutely pure, simple and understanding. Also, the balance that we have now, we know how far to go with things. So, we need not go on buying things, so many things that all the plastic fills the house. Try to keep to more artistic things, develop your artistic talents – we have lot of scope in Sahaja Yoga. This is for every day to day, mundane life.
It’s very important that we should try to be competitive with others in righteous, in goodness, in being kind to others – not jealous about some things that are so frivolous and which anybody can buy. As you know, we are different people, very different. In the evolutionary process, you have achieved this, you must be some great people in your last lives. I think that you are seeking. There may be many, many more in every country and specially in your country who are seeking the truth, who are not satisfied by going to the church or going to the temple or just going to some mosque. And they must be wanting to know what is further, what is the Absolute what we have to get. But deal with them carefully. Do not force your ideas. They might, by your own life and your transformation, your happiness and joy, your family life, they might themselves see it so clearly. So, in a very gentle way you will spread the good news of Sahaja Yoga.
Have you any questions now? I’d like to know. Ne? [No]. What do you think of the school in India?
Sahaja Yogi: I beg Your pardon?
Shri Mataji: You saw the school in India?
Sahaja Yogi: Yes.
Shri Mataji: What do you think?
Sahaja Yogi: That was very, very good. The children really made a ice pack factory just to build their vibrations on. To get in touch with the Spirit.
Shri Mataji: Yeah. And also, you see, we have used the colours which will suit the children and we’ve got all the things and I’m going to make the teachers also wear clothes that will appeal to teachers and not to be like military dresses, you see. [Laughter]
I’m already looking out for some sweet designs for children to wear. Because they should know that world is not a military world but it’s world of happiness and joy and a sense of beauty comes to them, when they see something nice and beautiful.
So also, like keeping the rooms tidy is easier if you make a beautiful room. If it’s a beautiful room the children want to keep the beauty, they want to maintain it beautifully. Also, in the school, we’ll be introducing arts, crafts, so many things, horse-riding, mountaineering – all these subjects we’re going to have for that. I’m sorry you all missed it.
[Laughter]
Sahaja Yogi: It’s so nice having all the children from all the countries coming.
Shri Mataji: I beg your pardon?
Sahaja Yogi: It’s so nice having the children coming from all the countries around the world. Shri Mataji: Yes.
Sahaja Yogi: Together.
Shri Mataji: Because- yes. And of all the religions. You see, it’s such an integration, you know. And they do not have these conditionings or anything and you should see the way the children greet each other. And they haven’t got racialism, nothing: you’re not to tell them because they’re so innocent and once they develop in that atmosphere, they become perfectly all right.
Also, we are starting a school there which is called as Arts and Crafts – 21 Arts and Crafts. We’re going to teach women how to cook, that’s very important. [Laughter]
You can also have one like that because the best way to win your husband is through his stomach. [Laughter]
Sahaja Yogi: I agree with it. [Laughter; applause]
Shri Mataji: So those who want to enrol should give Me [Laughter] So, it’s done now, I think, I’ll go and rest for a while.
[Laughter] So.
Enzo, what have you to say about art’s side of Sahaja Yoga?
Enzo: Well, it’s just the normal feature.
Shri Mataji: Now, I must potentially think.
Sahaja Yogi: It’s amazing potential.
Shri Mataji: Because your creativity becomes so active all the time flowing in you. Only thing you have to know the technique, that’s all. But you never get bankruptcy of creativity after coming to Sahaja Yoga.
Sahaja Yogi: I’m not sure I’ll get inspiration.
[Laughter]
Shri Mataji: Also one more thing about that, about art, that I have seen now people have started appreciating every kind of art. Not the- only this type or that type, but every kind of art, they want to see the beauty in it. Because if once you go to the essence of the beauty, essence of the beauty, then you start seeing it in everyone because Sahaja Yoga deals with the essence. And anything that you see, a human-being also, in essence, human-being is a beautiful thing. And if you see the essence of that personality then you get over all these ideas of differentiation or judging others or thinking that you are the best and rest are bad. All these things just neutralize because you know they are human-beings and as human-beings everybody is capable of attaining that beauty that is within. After all, we are all one if you see – we laugh the same way. Whatever may be: you get somebody say, from America or from India or from Australia, they laugh the same way, they cry the same way, they feel the same way. So, I mean, it’s just skin-deep difference, I think, we have. And in Sahaja Yoga, you just get rid of that.
It is such a vision of Mine of a very beautiful world, where all wars will end, all problems will end. Because now you know the absolute Truth, so there’s no discussion, no argument, nothing. I’ve seen you people never argue with each other, I’ve never seen you quarrelling with each other; Sometimes you pull each other’s legs, that’s good [[laughter]. That’s a good thing. That you must do, I think. That’s important. That brings out little humour.
[Marathi] How much time more?
[Conversation with a Sahaja Yogi in Marathi.]
This is painted by Sahaja Yogis?
Sahaja Yogi: Yes.
Shri Mataji: Sahaja Yoginis have done this painting. It’s beautiful.
Sahaja Yogi: Shri Ma, can I ask You if Vinay [unsure] can play? He has a short thing on violin.
Shri Mataji: All right, come along.
[Applause]
Turn this way, there’s some light.
[Young Sahaja Yogini plays on violin]
[Applause]
Very nice! It’s done so well! Oh, that’s right, is it?
Sahaja Yogi: Shri Ma, there’s now half an hour; if You would like to rest for half an hour, then we’ll be looking out tomorrow. There are several people here [inaudible]. That will give You time to rest.
Shri Mataji: And what do I do there?
Sahaja Yogi: They want to interview You about Sahaja Yoga for half an hour. But for half an hour You have.
Shri Mataji: All right.
All right, they’ll meet us again after half an hour and we’ll be out there. I think, they want to interview Me. Why not interview these people also?
Sahaja Yogi: [Inaudible].
[Cut in the video]
[No sound]
[INTERVIEW OF A SAHAJA YOGI]
Interviewer: Not necessary, well yes, I suppose, but there’s a - what’s a Goddess is so special, She‘s like a Dame with many facets to Her.
Sahaja Yogi: You can have a straight question.
Interviewer: Yes, I’ll put a straight question up to you.
Sahaja Yogi: To say that someone, a being like us could be Divine?
Interviewer: About Catholic Church, I suppose. I don’t see it that way, I don’t see it [Unclear conversation]
[Cut in the video]
[Unclear interview of a Sahaja Yogi]
Sahaja Yogi: I mean, I had a little cancer, skin cancer on my hands for instance, it just disappeared. – [unclear].
The fact that you’ve got this energy. It’s not vague, it’s totally pragmatic and very reasonable acts. And it’s intelligent and it has wisdom – [unclear] –
Interviewer: How do you explain something like a cancer disappearing?
Sahaja Yogi: Ah. Well, how do I explain it? I would say, I got vibrations, they flow from my hands and I just try this and it came out and finally disappeared.
Interviewer: Was it a miracle?
Sahaja Yogi: I can’t regard it so much as miraculous as another stage of a natural process, in other words, this is something about the life force really that’s underlining the perception we have of the world.
Interviewer: And what part is Shri Mataji playing in that process?
Sahaja Yogi: Well. She regards herself as a great catalyser. She is the first great Yogini who is actually in the world behind the process of Realizations en masse. I mean, this is something absolutely unique in this mastery of the Kundalini, which is a fact – actually, it is the most ancient, I think it’s about [inaudible] thousands of years. And it is straight running through this [unclear] tradition in the world [unclear] to Kundalini.
Interviewer: Is she of Divine bred?
Sahaja Yogi: Well, She says quite specifically, “When you know yourself, you know who I am.” She is not here to set Herself up; We have to realize who She is. And that’s how we have, after all, our freedom. 27:29
Interviewer: [Inaudible] She Herself visited Bombay.
Sahaja Yogi: But the thing is that you need to realize it. Saying is one thing, is a concept. Realizing is just fun.
Interviewer: How does that fit in with your [unclear], you know, in a Christian society? Cause you are in someone else’s [inaudible]?
Sahaja Yogi: I must admit I have pathological suspicion for Indian gurus and in the Christian society I’ve never been involved with organised churches because they right from my earliest times [unclear] step towards the realization of the human potentials and that’s the trouble of the whole church things that they give you something but you know, a lot of it is just technical and I think fight is the useless thing in that respect. You never know and that is the next stage.
Interviewer: That’s excellent, thanks. Great. If you can stand here for a second. [Unclear]
Sahaja Yogi: I was going to go to work.
Interviewer: How do you sort of, [inaudible] under pressure?
Sahaja Yogi: Absolutely.
Interviewer: [Unclear]
Sahaja Yogi: Ah! The thing about it is that, look, you just get the capacity to calm down. I mean, look, let’s face it, whatever job you’ve got, you’ve got a tremendous tension, you’ve got all this emotional stuff [unclear].
Now you can cope you have a tremendous strength.
Interviewer: Yes.
Sahaja Yogi: The human potential has not been tapped really. But do you also realize that maybe we needed a different style of society which is still worse [unsure], which is absolutely focused on materialism and power.
Interviewer: [Unclear] And the while thing that is basically wrong in that society is materialism.
Sahaja Yogi: Yes. It is materialism. Let’s face it, what flows and disrupts the society is what flows out of the people. They are accustomed to listen to their desires for material things like you also [unclear]
[UNCLEAR CONVERSATION]
- Right. - Did you get a feeling then something's happening or was just this - [UNCLEAR] - I know what you're suggesting. Yeah, nothing to add my suggestion - it was just a pragmatic fact. You just realizing the [UNCLEAR] through the system and hands.
[UNCLEAR] It's a fact. It wasn't a suggestion - Oh, yeah, yeah. - And what about this shoe business? - That's very traditional that came out of [UNCLEAR] and it was about, you see, projecting as a [UNCLEAR] to the earth allowing the earth to receive the things which are really disturbing our personal lives - and if it's done with the energy field over here [UNCLEAR] - Yeah [UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR] '97 [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] This is the thing about [UNCLEAR] It's not this what happened or that what happened - the whole thing comes down to you [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] If there's blockages in the system it will stop at here because the nerve plexus is here. The wave signals down to our hands [UNCLEAR] so if you feel blockage here [UNCLEAR] - [UNCLEAR] you get interested in sahaja yoga? - Annh, should we say, very slowly. I went to dinner with some friends and had a picture hidden in some flowers one of the television and seemed to be of an Indian lady so our major reaction was, "Ha, what are they up to here?" and they [UNCLEAR] it seemed interesting so we said, "Come along to meeting," and so we to a meeting and saw a video tape. I don't recall brightly about the meeting except that what was being said about Shri Mataji that time was very pragmatic very much conversant you know, so She was appealing to something in me but I had always felt that the The religions of the world were all rather exclusive clubs and there wasn't a claim to be any way for something to be done in way of, you know, philosophic ways of life and here is Someone saying that , "These were all part of a one scheme," and then over a period of about, it's more than six months actually, I slowly, sort of, edged my way into this and getting more and more information and feeling more personally and realizing that there was in fact something going on physically in me. - And what was that that was happening physically?
Well, two things. One, at that time I had just come out of hospital having had a prolapse disc in my right leg, which was virtually useless, and just before I discovered sahaja yoga, I was given the good news that that was as far as I was going to go. I had a catapult built - a special sort of plastic arrangement in my shoe to keep my foot straight - [UNCLEAR] you can't expect any more. This is as fast, you've got to put up with it. Well, I noticed, even in the first six months, that this, that healing process was continuing and I can only put that down now to my starting to practice sahaja yog Uh.. and it has continued. Have been years but it is contrary to medical expectation. I still have problems. I'm by no means cured, I can't say that but compared with what I was like when the period of healing supposedly up - I'm 300, 3000 % better. - Is that a miracle? - No, no, don't think it's a miracle.
It is the use of a power that we all have that we can exercise it. Nothing but sahaja yoga is doing, is teaching us how to exercise it. - And this is a power you can actually feel, is it? - Yes, yes. That is what, should we say that is the actualization, what happens when you get yours, what we call Self- realization - an awakening of this energy that exists in everybody and you don't feel it. It's not something that we say, we say, "Ah, well, you know we've done this Aabra ka Daabra and there you are. Now you are a sahaja yogi, you've got your Self-realization." Doesn't work like that. It is something that you actually feel on your Central Nervous System, usually as a coolness either on the palm of your hand and from the fontanel bone area on the top of the head. Now it's interesting that they call it fontanel bone because that means fountain.
So why is it a fountain? [UNCLEAR] fountain of something coming out of your head and that's what you actually feel sort of cool coming out of your head and in your hands. Some people feel in your fingers, some people feel it all over them. Everybody is different but they definitely feel something. In fact, if they don't feel something, then they haven't got their Self- realization. - And what is this Self-realization? What form is it? Like how does it happen? What is it? - Well.
at the base of the spine there is a bone called the sacrum bone. If we stop to see, "Why is it called sacrum bone? Why is it the sacred bone?" I mean to say it is a meaningful terminology. Uh.. there is within that bony area this sleeping energy, if you like, this potential energy that needs to be awakened in a human-being. And through the medium of somebody like Shri Mataji uh.. this awakening is possible; Don't ask me how She does it, I don't know. To use Her terminology, once it is enlightened it's like getting a candle you can light another candle. Until it's lit, it's no good to you and what happens is, She, She asks the people that She's giving Self-realization to go through certain, to put their hands on the parts of the body and to say certain things. Perhaps, the most important is getting the energy passed here, which is the narrow gate, Christ talked about. And She requires people to be literally forgiving, which people find very hard to do.
Often the people that come up after a program haven't had any sensation. It is because they have been unable to forgive. So, in a sense it is subtle but it is expressing itself on the Central Nervous System Sahaja yogi, what is She? Is She a Divine being? [UNCLEAR] In [UNCLEAR - HERSELF?] is a Being who is Divine Power. What is a Divine being? No, She is not a Divine being in the sense that She has normal parents. She was born in this world so it's, it's semantic, [UNCLEAR] what a Divine being is but, I think, the soul occupies the body - here we have Divine being. Did She [UNCLEAR - CLAIMS?]
to the miracles? No, She does do miracles but She doesn't claim to do. Most of the miraculous things have happened because of - the people having this energy awakened. - Did She [UNCLEAR - AWAKE THE ENERGY?]? - Yes She has. - So therefore she has to be some [UNCLEAR] - She's a trigger, She's a trigger. - She is a catalyst, yeah. How does that feel that saying you are being in a Christian society believe someone else another being perhaps, is Divine? Well initially not too well [UNCLEAR] told but then I came to realize that that's not actually what we are talking about. We're talking about a capacity, not talking about the person, talking about the capacity so that's [UNCLEAR] it's not great, that's separate from Her as a girl and in sense this is the same thing.
Her capacity to revive this energy is separated from the light that we see in Shri Mataji. And [UNCLEAR] it's quite fascinating to watch it. Sometimes She is totally the wife of Mr. Srivastava the [UNCLEAR] manages the United Nations other times She is something else again which is quite amazing and you see this change often taking place. - Better described as a Goddess hence [UNCLEAR] - I personally think She is - yes. - A Goddess? - A Goddess so much over the Gods but as, I think, that She shows all the signs and says all the things that might make me to believe that She is the person [UNCLEAR] - [UNCLEAR] the Comforter - So she is Christ's Mother? - Yes, She is. - So She is a Divine being? - Yes, I'll say so - personally I'll say so. Thanks, thanks again.
Just get your [UNCLEAR] - Thanks once again. So when did, when did this happen to you? [UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] - Tomorrow what should we expect? [UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] - [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] Shri MATAJI - She comes up to explain how this works. She doesn't have to do anything. - Alright. What we do, we have a introduction program, 15 minutes and in between music - about six musicians here travel. This is a part of the whole program, the whole exercise. [UNCLEAR] - She says that their music specialists have a particular type of function [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] She says that their music which is the heart's [UNCLEAR] so we have one, two songs then Shri Mataji will come. She will give Her talk, She will answer usually asks the audience have any questions, then She gives Self-realization.
So that [UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] What type of questions do you expect first timers over there, lot of people [UNCLEAR] but mainly questions people first time are vegetarianism, reincarnation [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] ....
.... but I certainly can feel life in a born realized [UNCLEAR] because once you have Kundalini awakening you can see things more clearly, I mean, [UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] Now as a sahaja yogi what's the difference in your thinking [UNCLEAR] - [UNCLEAR] - There was a conscious decision this time? - Yeah, [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] then I realized that [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] this world is crazy as it is and this is no ways it's going to change, change the inside I mean, it's helpless situation always talking, business just - She was going to change the inside. [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] the grey ones that last in the frame. Michelangelo used it also - they work they're like an instrument for the Divine power or whatever. Everything rise in the nature they go through and the arch is eternal [UNCLEAR], Shakespeare [UNCLEAR] all these great souls and people remember them [UNCLEAR] I mean, they remember something that's eternal [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] It's in every field of life, walk of life, it's not something, as long as you know yourself then there's help for the world and it first happens in collective [UNCLEAR] - How has sahaja yoga changed your life? - I feel [UNCLEAR] in a realistic way and I see [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] and there's no way you can't [UNCLEAR] you must know - certainly what's right. - You were, you were seven when you first started - Yes. - Ten years over - What's the difference in your thinking now - you were seven year old [UNCLEAR]? I've grown up, I should say. Of course, I mean, everyone has their ups and downs but knowing the Spirit within you, I mean, I'm not a great saint or anything, I'm not anything special but you learn how to say things like that you learn how to view the world as is and hopefully help to change it this mankind if you can change one by talking.
I mean, it's obvious you have to change the inside and it's through this Kundalini awakening of Self-realization [UNCLEAR] that this happens. - And what is there, is there a conversion process or..? - It's an evolutionary process and it's what's been preached and prophesied for centuries all the great saints and great poets talk about it and William Blake said, "Men will become prophets and your hands will speak." Once Kundalini is been awakened, you feel as the coolness in hands - - that's the physical proof, I mean, the benefits are just countless. - And that's real? - It's real, you feel on your Central Nervous System and that's one of the truths of life and I mean, it just sounds great but it's not, you feel for sure and [UNCLEAR] - And what's Shri Mataji's place in all this? - She's the catalyst [UNCLEAR] I mean you can [UNCLEAR] example Her whole family is involved in the Gandhi's, Gandhi's movement, I mean, She's been through all that the long processes of life [UNCLEAR] having family, then being a Mother, now She's a grand-mother. Now Her husband is retired. She's travels a lot endlessly - who in the world does that - name me one person. She works all Her time to enlightening [UNCLEAR] with this knowledge that She has and [UNCLEAR] let the opportunity pass [UNCLEAR] some other claim.
[UNCLEAR] Is She a Divine being, is She like any one else? [UNCLEAR - IF YOU FEEL?] physically and if you say what's happened, people have been cured from cancer, people have been cured from endless things and now man is walking after having Her medicine - She didn't cure them physically [UNCLEAR] in a way from magic wand it's because of in the awakening inside that he could walk on himself. Kundalini awakening if you coolness in your hands you can fix any problem in your life and if that happens worldwide to thousands then just think who She must be - She's not just anyone. - So, who is She? - I think, She is the Redeemer - I mean, it's very personal some more aspect [UNCLEAR] but it's time the people, uh.. sort of, stopped what they're doing - and think about what they're doing in their lives. - What's your [UNCLEAR]? - Someone who can enlighten humanity and bring them, bring their Spirit to their attention, I mean, [UNCLEAR] nothing all these theories are fair - communism is fair, democracy is fair - means what's democracy if we are not free inside. As human-beings we're bound by conditions, we're bound by money, we're bound by time. How can we be preaching democracy if we're not free, how can we be preaching communism - all these, all these things.
So She is, in your eyes, She is a Divine being very specifically? - Not such - it's a fact because I felt it physically If She, if She can raise Kundalini, I mean, saints, thousands of years ago, used to, you know, stand on one leg and do tapasya in Himalayas for lifetimes and without achieving [UNCLEAR - LEAST? ], if She can do it right now and on the spur of the moment for thousands, then there must be something about Her being Divine. She must hold Divine energy within Her and [UNCLEAR] you should doubt that, if you feel - in a physical [UNCLEAR] that's enough specific way of proving the same. - Thanks for same.... [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] .....What are you expecting? - [UNCLEAR] - And what have I basically [UNCLEAR] - They're sahaja yogis as well. - They are. And the who is the coordinator - Baba Mama, we call him - he's actually Shri Mataji's brother - Alright. He's once the [UNCLEAR] benefactor [UNCLEAR] in India [UNCLEAR] Shri Mataji - and play the programs - it's just fantastic.
How is it different than, sort of, mainstream traditional Indian music? - or is it just classical? - No, a lot of devotional songs. Some of them are just classical - [UNCLEAR] Yes, traditional songs written by saints thousands of years ago like Adi Shankaracharya wrote some amazing poetry and put it to music and I mean, they've got some ancient Indian literature to music - and it's just fantastic. - Okay, what's the musicians point of view? - Is it the melody or the rhythm or what's the attraction of Indian music for you - what do you, what do you say? Oh it's the opposite too. [UNCLEAR] there must be, they must have actually become a balance between two and through sahaja yoga [UNCLEAR] I mean, integration of Kundalini risen above the brain integrates everything in us - music, arts, planning whatever, I mean, we can all do that thing and feel integrated as a body - and music is just that, a tool of a Divine energy for everyone to - This is, is it ... [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] No, if it's an evolutionary process, it must happen to you, it must help you in your life. If it doesn't, then, I mean, it's anything, if you can go on to anything in your life [UNCLEAR]. You sit with us too, you sit with two thousand of others, if it works, then you take it.
Do you think this should be in [UNCLEAR] there should be more hundred followers in Australia [UNCLEAR] Everyone must know, at least have the opportunity to know if, I mean, if [UNCLEAR] has opportunity to be able to change themselves and then change the world as yourself. [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] .... Whether it be twenty thousand or it be one hundreds, as long as somebody with substance can say [UNCLEAR] as long as someone benefits in the end that's all, that's important if only one person only comes back, as long as they got a goal over it, as long as they're sincere and they sincerely want to hope to change their life, then that's great - - whoever, whoever comes, that's just great. .. [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] ... You were talking about the coolness Starts in the center of the palm and also coming through the fontanel bone area, that's the physical proof that you have Kundalini awakening. If you feel heat, for example, it's say, flushing out any imbalances within you. If you feel nothing then it hasn't been awakened, it's very clear cut but the result of that awakening is what usually makes people stay.
[INTERVIEW OF SHRI MATAJI]
Interviewer: That, tomorrow night, is that drying You physically? Is it –
Shri Mataji: No, no.
Interviewer: Is that quite an experience?
Shri Mataji: I enjoy. No problem, I enjoy it.
Interviewer: What sort of responses have You been getting from people in Australia?
Shri Mataji: Very good, I must say. Suddenly they have come up with this new urge. And the questions they ask also are very sensible.
Interviewer: What about, what about asking?
Shri Mataji: They ask questions about Kundalini, whether it’s an energy or whether it’s a – something material.
Interviewer: Is it – how do You spell it?
Shri Mataji: Kundalini – k-u-n-d-a-l-i-n-i
Interviewer: How do you explain it today, what do You say about Kundalini?
Shri Mataji: It’s an energy. It’s an energy but you can see the movement of the energy in some people. If there is a, say, a problem on any one of your centres, then you see the pulsation. Even on the triangular bone in a very strong way the bone starts pulsating just like heart.
Interviewer: Yeah. So, this physical vibrate.
Shri Mataji: Yes, that is, you can see it physically.
Interviewer: If You had any, what decide to say that tonight?
Sahaja Yogi: Tonight’s plan, I don’t know.
Interviewer: I mean, what are the Russian scientists?
Shri Mataji: Russian scientists are, you see, they are fed up with science, they say.
Interviewer: Are they really?
Shri Mataji: They say, “Now give us Self-realization.” They are very deep people, I must say because –
Interviewer: Are they?
Shri Mataji: Yes, very deep. Because one of the scientists asked Me a question there that, “You tell us how did You cure people just while you were having the mass program?”
I said, “I don’t know if somebody is cured.” He said, “Yes my friend was cured and how did You cure?”
For example, we have doctor here. He had eczema for, I don’t know, how many years. “Doctor, how many years?”
Sahaja Yogi: Several years Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Hu?
Sahaja Yogi: Several years.
Shri Mataji: And in three days he was cured.
Interviewer: And that was just through the awakening process, was it?
Shri Mataji: Not the awakening also, you see, it’s the vibrations.
Shri Mataji: You see, if you put, if you put your, if I put hand in this water.
Interviewer: Yes, what do I see?
Shri Mataji: Vibrations, you don’t see. But once you have got Realization, then you can see in the sky: there, there, they are there. See, all of them are like this. Can you?
Interviewer: Anyone here.
Shri Mataji: No, no, not at all, in the sky. You see, it’s little bit, you can see like small commas, sparkling commas. You see it finally? All right, give him Realisation then he can see. You can see it clearly. I can see it. You see, it’s a subtle thing,’ ne’, so you have to be subtle yourself. But can you see some sort of loops? Now let’s see. Can you see some loops? Are you all right?
Sahaja Yogi: Just a second Shri Mataji.
[Sahaja Yogi is giving Realisation to the interviewer.]
Interviewer: And then what are we looking out at, Shri Mataji?
Shri Mataji: You see, you see, when you see in the sky –
Interviewer: All right so, where do we start from, Shri Mataji? You had better hold it
You have to get your Realization. All right, let’s see, let’s start that way. All right, now, just raise his Kundalini. If you can take out your shoes, it will be better because, you see, this Mother Earth gives us, she sucks in all our problems also quite a lot. You are not aware of it, you see, but she does. –
Interviewer: So, I’m going to have connection with the earth.
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes, that’s very important – it’s like the earth feel.
Interviewer: All right.
Shri Mataji: Now, the first thing you’ll feel like a cool breeze in your hand.
I can feel the Sun on that palm.
Shri Mataji: No, not the cool breeze out there? You have to forgive, you have to forgive everyone.
Interviewer: I can feel the cool breeze there.
Shri Mataji: See.
Interviewer: But that’s from your hand.
Shri Mataji: No, no, there, you’ll feel it now.
Interviewer: And again.
Shri Mataji: Again.
Interviewer: I can’t feel breeze.
Shri Mataji: All right, this is the kingdom of God. You see, it’s a very subtle thing, ‘na’ so it takes.
Interviewer: I can feel something cool on there.
Shri Mataji: All right, let’s put it up. Now, in this hand?
Interviewer: I can feel the rush of air of your hand.
No, no, just see now. Don’t doubt it, it’s there. Just see now.
Interviewer: What am I meant to feel?
Shri Mataji: You feel a little cool breeze going in, you see. I think there’s too much thinking.
Interviewer: Too much?
Shri Mataji: Too much thinking. It’s too much thinking.
Interviewer: Too much thinking, that is my problem.
Shri Mataji: Yes. Let Me correct that part. It’s too much thinking, you see, it’s all right.
You’ll be alright. In Auckland, one interviewer felt like two balls of ice.
Interviewer: What do I feel like?
Shri Mataji: You’ll feel the same way, you’ll feel the cool breeze. You see, this part is too much thinking and not forgiving. Just forgive, forgive everyone. See, this is like a mountain here, you see?
Interviewer: And that’s from too much thinking.
Shri Mataji: Hmm. Futuristic planning, futuristic personality. First, you’ll feel very relaxed also. No thought. Hmm, better. Now in the hands? Take out your coat, I think it’ll be better because –
Interviewer: I can feel my hands cool.
Shri Mataji: Cool you’re feeling. It’s alright.
Interviewer: But I still think it is the breeze.
Shri Mataji: No, the breeze from where? Just see, the trees are just silent. It’s started. These trees are silent, aren’t they? Just look at these trees, not even a leaf is moving. Now can you feel the cool breeze in your hands? Now, you’ll also feel out of your head.
Interviewer: Can You feel anything? Can the doctor feel any?
Shri Mataji: No, not yet. This is quite heavy here.
Interviewer: It’s a thick head. [Laughter]
Shri Mataji: You have to just say to your Kundalini, which is your mother. So, you have to just say in your heart seven times, “Mother please come in my head”. And she comes, she does come. Hmm. Now. He works very hard this gentleman.
Interviewer: I’m a hard case.
Shri Mataji: No, no, no you got it. It’s final. Just see on the head.
Interviewer: And what am I meant to feel?
Sahaja Yogi: [unclear]
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes.
You see, this Kundalini, is the power of pure desire. Pure desire. All desires you have, supposing you want to have a coat, then you like to have a shirt, then you’ll have to have a car, then a house. It goes on and on and on. But this thing is a desire which fulfils. Now, let’s see, it’s shaking. Why it’s shaking, the hand? It’s too much of right side, you see. I told you.
[To the Sahaja Yogi] Put him left to the right. It will last. See now, it should not shake.
Interviewer: That’s because I have my hands up, I feel.
Shri Mataji: That won’t shake. Sit comfortably. Still shaking, see. [Shri Mataji laughs]
See, the trouble is –
Interviewer: What does that mean?
Shri Mataji: That means you are running a very hectic life.
Interviewer: My boss would be very happy to know it. But that’s just nervous.
Shri Mataji: Yes, it means you’re nervous and that shows immediately. That nervousness is shown. See now, on head.
Interviewer: And what’s that suggesting? Is the Kundalini arising?
Shri Mataji: Arising but she is, she is nourishing your nerves, so you are feeling that. It should be all right. It is steady now. You people have a very hectic, heavy life. Better now, see much better. Hmm, better?
Sahaja Yogi: [unclear]
Interviewer: My head is actually cool.
It’s not a very comfortable position.
Shri Mataji: [unclear]
Sahaja Yogi: Just sit back, relax.
Shri Mataji: Relax, sit absolutely comfortably. See now, hands are better now [name of Sahaja Yogi].
Sahaja Yogi: Yes.
Interviewer: So, what’s state of my nerves?
Shri Mataji: The state is that you have crossed this part but you haven’t yet crossed this part. All right? You relax, you’ll feel relaxed yourself, don’t have any thoughts in your mind.
Hmm. Feel this center? Your hands have become steady. Better?
Interviewer: Yes, very relax.
Shri Mataji: Very relax, all right?
Interviewer: It’s nice surroundings and it’s a nice afternoon.
Shri Mataji: Yes. Put your both the feet on the ground.
Interviewer: All right.
Shri Mataji: Nothing to do, you are quite shaking. One has to accept the truth, you see, that’s the problem with you. [unclear] left right, the whole sympathetic.
Interviewer: What does the Truth have to do with the nervous system?
Shri Mataji: Just now you are feeling these vibrations in the hands, the coolness in hand. You see, now this is how you become a person who has got Collective Consciousness. That means, with this you can feel your own centres on your fingertips. And you feel others and you can also feel the centres of others on your fingertips.
It is already described in Koran, very clearly, that, “At the time of resurrection the hands will speak and they’ll give witness against you.” Just now your hands were giving witness that you lead a very hectic life and that, as if, you are against yourself, in a way.
Better. But in the collective, when we have masses, it works much faster. Just in 10-15 minutes thousands can get Realization. In the same state. Now see the cool is there; Come and see. They all know this very well, they have the full idea.
Interviewer: They have experienced this?
Shri Mataji: Yeah, they’re experts, you know, they are all experts.
Interviewer: They have all experienced this?
Shri Mataji: Yeah, they’re experts, you know, they are all experts.
Sahaja Yogi: It’s up here.
Shri Mataji: It’s up here. You’ve got a very big one. [unclear] Yeah, must feel it now, the cool breeze. Alright?
Sahaja Yogi: It’s a subtle feeling.
Interviewer: I’m trying very hard, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: You can’t feel it anything? Nothing cool on your hand?
Sahaja Yogi: [unclear].
Shri Mataji: Yeah, this side. Now?
Interviewer: I can feel a little bit of cool on my palm. But that’s because it’s probably in the shade.
[Shri Mataji laughs]
Sahaja Yogi: Why in your palm?
Shri Mataji: And now there are no leaves moving. See? Now see with the other hand also once again. See the other hand, raise the other hand. Now?
Interviewer: I’m trying very hard.
Shri Mataji: Can’t get any cool breeze? It’s up there. We all can feel it. Ah. Now?
Interviewer: Yeah, a little bit.
[Shri Mataji laughs] You’re not going to win. You are not getting me to admit it.
[laughter] Do all these people can they feel it?
Shri Mataji: Of course. They are experts.
Interviewer: You can feel it, you can all feel it, can you?
Sahaja Yogini: Yeah, yeah.
Shri Mataji: Of course, they can feel, they can cure, they can –
Interviewer: So, what’s the matter with me?
Thank You very much! [Applause]
Shri Mataji: [Unclear] your relaxation. Actually, little bit you have to fix your connection.
Interviewer: So, I have to be faithful with myself, that’s basically.
Shri Mataji: Of course, you should not be blind at all about it. You have to be very truthful with yourself and you should find out yourself and you should certify yourself. Nobody is going to certify you though we feel it, you see, on your head you will feel. But also your this center [Vishuddhi] is not all right very much. The way they were shaking, hands. That shows also you write too much, do you write? You use your right hand too much. So, that’s why there’s a little tension. But it’s alright, it will all work out.
Interviewer: I feel better already.
Okay, are you ready?
Cameraman: Sure.
Shri Mataji: His face has changed.
Interviewer: In what way? Now I have a ‘kundal’ experience. Am I different from when we started that experience or?
Shri Mataji: Of course.
Interviewer: In what way?
Shri Mataji: You relaxed and you’ve grown younger.
Interviewer: But some would say, “Of course, I’ll be relaxed. I’m in nice surroundings.”
Shri Mataji: No.
Interviewer: You spoke to me in a very serene way.
Shri Mataji: You may be in the bathroom, you’ll feel the same, anywhere. It’s nothing to do with the surroundings as such. It’s something, inner happening which takes place. That’s how, as a result of that, you feel that way, you see. And it’s been described in many ways. Even in the Bible they say, “I’ll appear before you like tongues of flames.” So, these centres that are within you, the subtle centres, they really look like flames, very gentle flames of different colours. But in the brain, they are about thousand, like petals but they are like flames, you can say, because the petals don’t open and close like that. [Unclear] the way the limbic area is covered like this. And when it opens, it opens like this. But say, now in your case, your right side is more active. What you have done, you’ve covered it like that. So, we had to put a little balance. So, we raised your left more and put you to the right. By doing that, it little bit went down. Then we could open it.
Interviewer: But You did it on a large scale, didn’t You? You did it with a lot of people.
Shri Mataji: That’s, when there are many people, it works faster. Then I don’t have to touch anyone, it just works. And because you’re alone here working it out, that’s why it took time.
But it’s a collective happening.
Interviewer: Is that the main suggestion?
Shri Mataji: No, no suggestion is there, nothing. But only thing is that, tell them how to have their Self-confidence with themselves because mostly they’re diffident and things like that. So, I have to just tell them there are different centres on the left-hand side and you just put your left hand towards Me – means it’s symbolic that your desire is there. And then you have to just nourish yourself because then you know what it is like. Nourish yourself and then suddenly you find, you become cool, on your hands you start feeling.
Interviewer: How do You explain that, how do you explain this power You have to evoke this feeling?
Shri Mataji: I mean, it’s like the Mother Earth. How do you explain how Mother Earth gives us these flowers?
It’s the living process. It’s the evolutionary process and this is now the last breakthrough. At human awareness we do not know the Absolute. We have no absolute knowledge and that’s why we fight, you see. But if everybody knows the same thing, there’s no quarrelling, no fighting, nothing. But we live in a relative world. To get out of this relativity we have to be the Absolute and Absolute is your Spirit, which is actually in your heart. But what happens that this part [Brahmarandhra], this is the center of, this is the seat of the heart, the fontanel bone area, the seat of the heart. So, as soon as you touch that, the Spirit is manifested on your nervous system. So first you get it, this feeling, then gradually it grows, you see, because it’s a subtle feeling, it starts growing. With these you can easily make out what’s wrong with yourself, first of all. That’s now your- this thing was shaking too much, you see, these [Shri Mataji shows her thumbs].
This is the thing for too much thinking [Shri Mataji shows her right thumb]. This center is futuristic, creative also. The person who is creative gets this problem, with this one.
And the whole hand was shaking, right specially – means you are very right-sided. And according to us, a right-sided person is a person who is more an extrovert you can call him. A person who is always planning, thinking, futuristic. Also, physical problems show on this finger.
Interviewer: But why have You been called to awake this feeling of power within?
Shri Mataji: Why? Why have I been?
Interviewer: Why have You been called to do this, to be the catalyst?
Shri Mataji: I mean, somebody has to be called, I mean, it’s Me who was called. Now you may be called. [Laughter] You see, it is the –
Interviewer: So, you, you look on it as the Divine power that You have?
Shri Mataji: You see, I, I don’t say I have that power because, you see, I’m rather careful about Myself. The trouble is, Christ was the Son of God; I know for definite He was. But when He said that they crucified Him. You see, people don’t want to accept the Truth. When He died then you build His temples and things like that. But till He lived nobody listened to Him. So best is not to tell them about Yourself, that’s my own style.
Interviewer: But You have a remarkable power. How do You used it Yourself? Who is Shri Mataji?
Shri Mataji: I. I see my- I cannot put myself into any category. What to do? I don’t see myself. I- there’s nothing to see. I know that this work has to be done by Me. I see this. This is why I’m on this earth.
Interviewer: But You don’t explain that power. How do You explain this power then? Where does it come from? And why You?
Shri Mataji: I think, I was chosen for this, perhaps, that’s all I can say, for this work.
Interviewer: You’ve been described as the Redeemer, as a Goddess, Divine. What do You say about those description?
Shri Mataji: Must be something there. You see, it all started with, in the West, by some people from England who wanted to know about the Holy Ghost that Christ has said, “I’ll send you.” So, they went to many people, tried to find out and tallying it. But when they came to Me, they found that I can do all these three things very well. Firstly, because I can cure people, I can give comfort and I can counsel them. I can tell them all about it about all this subtle knowledge which they do not know. And I redeem them because they can get this breakthrough. That’s how they’re changed. But I never say what I am. It is for them to judge.
Interviewer: Did You say that you work miracles?
Shri Mataji: I didn’t say that also.
Interviewer: That is something I can’t do. These other people also can’t do.
Shri Mataji: I also don’t say that because in these days of darkness, it’s better not to claim anything. So, I don’t say that. But those who have seen it, miracles they have seen, so they say it’s miraculous. But no use. You see, now, for example we have some photographs with us, tremendous, so many photographs we have which you can call them absolutely miraculous, out of the blue. But you show it to somebody who’s not a Realized soul, they will say, “It’s just a-”. No use showing them. You see, human-beings don’t believe in God in the real sense of the word. They don’t know there’s Divinity. They don’t also have faith in themselves, you see. So, from this stage they must rise a little higher. As My father used to say that, “Those who are on the ground floor must at least come to the second, third floor to know that there’s something beyond”. Otherwise, how will they come to it?
Interviewer: You come from a Christian background, didn’t you?
Shri Mataji: Yes, I do.
Interviewer: What changed your way from Christianity?
Shri Mataji: What?
Interviewer: Changed your way from Christianity. Did Christianity lack something?
Shri Mataji: I’m not at all, I’m the greatest Christian, I think. Because I know about Christ everything and I work out through Him. So, I’m the greatest Christian. Christians don’t practice Christianity at all, they don’t. They’re just the other way round. Christ has said, “You’ll be calling Me ‘Christ, Christ’ I won’t recognize you.” I’m not against Christ, I’m very much for Him and I can’t tolerate the way people talk about Him. I just can’t tolerate. It’s all falsehood.
Interviewer: So, where do You see yourself in relations, in relation to Christ?
Just explain that relationship as a, as the Redeemer. Explain that to me.
Shri Mataji: He has already talked about Me like the Holy Ghost and all that. But it is for you to find out. You have to see; I don’t want to see. You have to find out if I’m the Redeemer or not, what He has said about the Holy Ghost.
First of all, they have cancelled any feminine power in the Bible, by Mr. Paul and company. Paul is just a - like somebody who entered into Christianity. He never saw Christ, nothing of the kind. He saw a very good platform for Christians. Just jumped into it, organized the whole thing. He was an organizer, thought it was a nice platform for him. Then Augustine did the same. But there’s still hope because Thomas, the disciple of Christ, he went to India through Egypt. There he has written his treatise which are now being decoded and all that after forty-eight years. And he said the same thing what I am saying that, “It’s a experience, there’s a spontaneity, it’s collectivity,” everything he has talked about. But, I think, that book is banned, perhaps, I don’t know.
Interviewer: You talked that this Kundalini is a physical thing, kind of a thing. How can You explain that just what is it, Kundalini?
Shri Mataji: It’s the, is a power within us, all the time waiting within us to give us our second birth in the sense that, like I would say that now you have this instrument here [mike] and it has to be connected to the mains, isn’t it? Otherwise, it has no meaning. In the same way, it is coiled up within us. And just it connects you to the mains, that’s all, it’s as simple as that.
Interviewer: So, we connect with one and all, the whole?
Shri Mataji: Yes, you get connected with this All-pervading Power. And this All-pervading Power, everybody is connected with us. It can solve the subtle of all the elements, it is. And then once you are connected with that, just like a remote control, you see, or a remote way of, the way your television works, you see. Everybody feels the same because they are connected.
Interviewer: How do You explain the miracles that happened? You evoke, people say that You are evoking them. For instance, what happened in Eastern Europe? Do You think your presence in that conference in [inaudible], do you think that had anything to do with what happened there in Eastern Europe?
Shri Mataji: Yes, but they are very deep people.
Interviewer: Now, why do You think it, how did You affect what was going to happen in Eastern Europe?
Shri Mataji: You see, actually, how can you explain now how did this flower came out of a seed? Tell Me? It’s a living process, it’s built-in; It’s all built-in within you and just works!
Interviewer: So, what special message did You give those delegates when they went back home?
Shri Mataji: That you have to become one with the Divine, you have to get your transformation if you want to see human-beings saved, being saved. And this whole world is to be saved, then you have to take to it. But it’s a hypothesis world, you see, you need not accept Me blindly. It’s a hypothesis. But if it works, then as honest people you must accept it.
Interviewer: But You still claim -
[cut in the video]
Shri Mataji: I do not claim anything because I know to claim anything means you have to go to courts. But it works.
Interviewer: I’d like to get You to explain me that I know better, Redeemer [inaudible] what the role is?
Shri Mataji: What the -
Interviewer: What the role is? What the Redeemer actually is?
Shri Mataji: What was the role of Christ?
What is the role of Shri Krishna? What was the role of Shri Rama? They were like human beings. Christ came up to this point [Agnya chakra]. This point and now the last center has to be opened out. Somebody has to do it. It could have been you or it could have been Me, anyone could have been.
Interviewer: There is a call. You have been called.
Shri Mataji: That’s a fact.
[Aside conversation without Shri Mataji]
Interviewer: Shri Mataji can you tell us what the Redeemer is?
Shri Mataji: Redeemer is a person who gives you your second birth, who connects you to this All-pervading power, who makes your Spirit enlighten your attention. When your Spirit is enlightening your attention, your attention itself becomes effective. You pay attention to something, it works.
It’s- human-being is a very big thing. We do not know the capacity of a human-being how he’s made. He is a very special thing. He is the epitome of evolution. Like, we would say like you take a small little television set to a remote village. They’ll say, “What is this box? Good for nothing!” But once you put to the mains, then they will know how fantastic it is. In the same way, the man has to discover his own glory, his greatness. He’s getting lost in the superficialities.
Interviewer: And You’re the person who can awake that feeling in people. You are the –
Shri Mataji: No, it’s your own power, it’s within you. It’s like one enlightened light can enlighten another. Like these people can do the same. So, it’s one candle which was enlightened is enlightening another candle.
Interviewer: But You have been called to do it. And that is a Divine calling, is it?
Shri Mataji: Whichever way you want to call it, you can call it. But actually, it had to be done, that’s all I can say.
Interviewer: As such, do You view yourself as a Divine being with this power?
Shri Mataji: ‘Nai’ [No], It’s better you find out about Me. Suppose, if I say, “I’m Divine”. Must you believe Me? You should not. What’s the use of –
Interviewer: A lot of these people were saying You are Divine being and in fact a Goddess!
Shri Mataji: Because, because they have experienced it, they have felt it, they have got their Realization. They can cure people, they can redeem people, they can raise the Kundalini and their lives are changed, you see. So many were there, drug addicts: overnight they have given up. There were alcoholics: they have given up alcoholism. They are leading a very sane married life, they have beautiful children, they are beautiful people and we are this time, we had a seminar in India, every year we have, we had people from fifty-five nations and such beautiful people. They were about five thousand people, no quarrel, no fight, nothing. Just enjoying each other, helping each other.
Interviewer: These vibrations, what are they?
Shri Mataji: These are the ones - with this power flowing through you – that’s how you feel them. It’s all around you.
And then you should know only how to use this power. This is the power which is already there, existing, this is one of the truths which you have to feel. Once you start feeling on your central nervous system. To feel on your central nervous system is the knowledge. And then you should know how to use this power: what does this mean, what does that mean? That’s all.
Interviewer: How do You do that on a mass scale?
Shri Mataji: This is very simple, you see., I make them touch their different centres. And they ask for it, that’s all. That’s how it works out.
Interviewer: And how do you explain that power which You [inaudible]?
Shri Mataji: Well, it’s there, I should say so.
How do you explain the power of the Mother Earth? You didn’t tell Me that. She doesn’t claim anything, She’s there. But you know that if you put some seed into earth, it is sprouted. That’s all. Simple as that. It cannot be explained, it is just to be felt and understood and to be used. How do you explain electricity, any power whatsoever? How do you explain your power of looking at Me? It’s there, that’s all.
Interviewer: Would You disagree with Me when I call You ‘Divine’, ‘a Goddess’? Would You disagree with descriptions like that or not?
Shri Mataji: I’ll not agree on these angles. Now I’ve become very clever. Because the way people have tortured all these great incarnations and all these prophets, I’m not going to run any risk like that.
Interviewer: What sort of role is safe for women in society in groups like Aborigines? Can I - Aborigines in particular- can I have their [inaudible]?
Shri Mataji: Of course, very much, they are very much there. You see, they are, on the contrary, not so complicated. But I would say that the modern man is much more complicated than these Aborigines are. They have gone little further than they should have. Say, supposing you start from here. You come up to a point, here you have to rise. Now they have grown like that. Now because of their ego they cannot come back. but these people can be brought in – there are many Aborigines who have got Realization. All religions, you see, we have Muslims, we have Jews. Now the Jews are the ones who really worship Christ because they know what Christ is.
Interviewer: Who in your mind is perhaps the saddest person? Is it the person who finds truth and then goes away from that? Who would You describe as the one, perhaps, who is needing this much?
Shri Mataji: You see, I have had many mishaps, especially in this country. They came into Sahaja Yoga, like that you see, and then, I think, they became like Paul or something. They wanted to assert their power because they thought that’s everything. And then they started making money, without telling Me. All such things, you see, these things lead them wrong sometimes and if you do not meditate and put your correction permanently, then you can fall. Still in your ascent there could be a problem.
Interviewer: So, people have been evolved with the Sahaja Yoga movement and then left.
Shri Mataji: Some, yes.
Interviewer: Because they, because they tried to make money out of this?
Shri Mataji: Yes money. Money, they made. And we had someone who was a homosexual and he was all right to begin with. But again, he was caught up with the same. Then he started troubling Sahaja Yogis. Then we had people who are, sort of, running after women, sort of people. There was one like that and then the women complained that, “Mother, you see, this man is no good.”
Interviewer: What did You say? What’s the story behind that?
Shri Mataji: You see, just troubling women, harassing women. And it came back to him, somehow or the other, the same thing. He started doing it, you see, they are not such ardent seekers. They are not the people who are seriously seeking. So, then they go against it. Like we had somebody, we brought him here all the way. He was an artist. He became a great artist and all that. And he wanted to become the leader of everyone [unsure] and all that. And you see, they sit on the horse and we have to put the hat on. So, among thousands, there could be few also.
Interviewer: What about those people perhaps who have, had to leave the movement and have been emotionally affected by what they’ve been through?
Shri Mataji: No, you see, they are not emotionally or anything, they just tell lies. They have been very unkind to us. You see, we’ve done so much for them, worked so hard on them, everything we’ve done what was possible under the sun. But they have no sense of responsibility, they have no self-respect and the way they have lynched people and troubled them is very wrong.
Interviewer: What sort of lies did they tell about?
Shri Mataji: What?
Interviewer: What sort of lies did they tell about Sahaja Yoga?
Shri Mataji: Lies? I don’t know what they say. One of them started saying, “I’m Maha Mataji – I’m the great Mataji.” And everybody ran away from that person because God knows what was he up to. Then now he’s nowhere, he’s nowhere. Like that.
Interviewer: What about claims that You have actually threatened people that they will contract AIDS and cancer if they leave the movement?
Shri Mataji: I’m not that kind. You see, when, when these people go away, actually, they do not go away, we have to ask them to get out: very difficult. They don’t want to leave. It’s very difficult to ask them to get out. But when we have to ask them to get out, we say that, “You meditate at home, purify yourself and then come back, because you shouldn’t spoil others.” Then they get angry and then they start. It’s always in, you see, it’s always so because they think that we have asked them to go and all that. We cannot have such bad apples to spoil the whole of them. You see, they have no right to do that.
Interviewer: A lot of them now might say that they are living in fear.
They are living in?
Interviewer: In fear. They are frightened.
Shri Mataji: Yeah, might have been because, you see, we had one leader here who was, who became a Hitler. But these people never told Me he was like that. I discovered it Myself. You see, there was one fellow who suddenly became like that. And specially, in Australia I had very bad experiences of three leaders who did that way.
Interviewer: What does that do then to Your credibility?
Shri Mataji: You see because I am now all over the world, you see, and when they came, they were very nice people. Actually, they were the first who came to seek, seeking and they said, “We can start the work and all that all right.” They were very good to begin with. But then suddenly, I don’t know how, you see, because I think they gave up meditation, they gave up their practices to keep themselves pure. Like if you don’t cleanse yourself, you get dirty. That might have happened to them. I don’t know what happened. But normally I don’t think, they are against Me, they are more against these people. I don’t think they have reported things against to Me or some.
Interviewer: Does that upset that this sort of things happen that –
Shri Mataji: No, you have to take it.
Interviewer: What it does, it does to You?
Shri Mataji: You see, it’s not upsetting but I feel that one learns through experience that you should have a better watch on them or things like that. You see, in other countries like India, England and all that, we have a better system because we have Chartered Accountants appointed who go through the accounts and things, see things what these people are doing. I never collect money. I don’t know what they’re doing and how they are.
But in Australia, I couldn’t get anybody like that. Now we have three, four Chartered Accountants and things will work out. It’s actually, it starts with money only. I think, it starts with money. First is that, I think, that they’ll start collecting money saying that, “This is for this project and this is for this,” something like that. And these people, without asking Me, just start giving the money. Then they think that they’re now making some money out of it. Now, then they think that it’s better to put a fear into their minds. Even they say that, "You should not write to Mother anything about it. We’ll do it". And I don’t know why but in Australia, people very much accepted the situation like that. It’s more in Australia. In other countries they’ll just write to Me immediately because I’ve told them always to write to Me.
Interviewer: Where do You get Your money from to run all this?
Shri Mataji: I don’t get any money whatsoever. Only when I travel My husband used to pay, he used to pay for halls also. First time when I, twice, when I came to Australia, I paid for the halls and everything. But now these people, as they have self-respect, so they pay for the hall. This is hired. This is purchased or hired, I don’t know.
Sahaja Yogi: Purchased.
Shri Mataji: Purchased. This is purchased by these people. They are living – I don’t know their accounts or anything. I’m not interested [unsure].
Only thing, when I travel, now they’ve opened an international fund, which I don’t know what they’re doing about it. And that’s how they pay internationally. And that’s how I travel.
Interviewer: What’s the message tomorrow night which You’ll bring to the statement?
Shri Mataji: Is that you should all get your Self-realization. You should know yourself because you do not know yourself and by knowing yourself, you’ll know everybody else. And then by that, you will know how great you are. You’ll develop that self-respect within yourself. You will know what is virtue is. You will be proud of your virtues and the so-called ideas about righteousness just become part and parcel of you. You become righteous. You don’t have to tell them, “Do this, do that,” they just do it.
I’ll give an example like, supposing we are standing in darkness, we can’t see and we are holding on to a snake, supposing. And you are obstinate, you see. Somebody says, “This is a snake.” You will never drop it because you are obstinate, you can’t see till that thing bites you. But supposing there is little light, then you yourself drop it out. In the same way, it works that way.
But in India, you see, I don’t have so much problems because we traditionally we know about it very well. This has been going on for ages. But traditionally, it was such that only one master had one disciple only. Till the 12th century. In the 12th century, one great saint called Dnyaneshwara, he wrote a book, treatise about Gita. In that, he requested his guru to give permission, at least, to write about it. Then in the sixth chapter, he wrote it. After that, many poets in India have written, many people have said it and -
Interviewer: Why don’t You like Paul in the New Testament?
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Interviewer: Why don’t You like Paul in the New Testament?
Shri Mataji: Paul is the one who’s ruined us completely.
Interviewer: How?
Shri Mataji: See, because he took our attention from Spirituality to organisation. He organised us, you see. See, organisation is wrong, you cannot organise God. You cannot organise, you cannot organise Christ, you see. So, this is the mistake. Once you get organised, then you are finished.
Interviewer: What is your relationship with God?
Shri Mataji: God? [Shri Mataji is laughing]. I think, you’d better find out, I don’t want to say anything. Because saying anything, why should you believe Me? Again, I say. I don’t want to say anything. You find out what is my relationship to God. It must be something special but for that, everybody has to come up to a point because I do not want to force my ideas or anything.
- More special than anyone else here? - Yes. You see, supposing I'm talking to you about something histology then you have to bring a microscope, isn't it, to see it? What's the use of talking about it? So once you have that microscope, you can see yourself. - So You are above us? You are, in a [UNCLEAR - WAY?] a Divine being. - I'm not going to say that either, - in no way. - Thanks Shri Mataji, [UNCLEAR] thanks very much! Alright, yeah, yeah - sorry. Just another quickie.
Hmm, I should have asked this earlier. About the talks of true and false prophets. - Yeah How do You recognize the difference between those two? First thing is that anybody looks at your pockets, you can know - first thing. - Secondly, - What do You mean by that? - Just if they ask money, if, like Rolls Royces they buy, see out of your money, they make business out of your money - naturally such a person - I don't understand even banking, you'll be surprised, but apart from that it's better to do this way that you find out the people who are following that master. What sort of people they are? Are they righteous, are they happy with each other, are they collective, what is the difference because if you want to go to a master you want to have something more than what you have - isn't it? Then you should see what have they got from it and then go - just blind-folded you should not join something and you should not believe anyone blindly but they're all can be found out because they are in the market. they're marketing everything - everything they are marketing.
So many have been found out now recently we had horrible report about Muktanand; If you read, you won't eat food for eight days - you better read that. - Why You a true prophet? - Annh? - Why you a true prophet? - Why...? - Why are You a true prophet? - I'm not saying that - did I? No I said you must - But you're not a false prophet? I did not say that also. Whether I am false or not, you better judge it yourself by talking to all these people, first of all, and then if I take any money from you, then you cancel it.
Then what you have to see is that what you gain out of Me. If you gain something out of Me, well and good otherwise why should you have a prophet? What is the need to retain a prophet? - So, You not admit to be a Divine being or a Goddess but You admit to being a prophet. No, I'm not saying that. You're just trying to put into My mouth something which I will not accept - I never said anything. I said you better get your realization. Once you get your realization, then you will know about Me better. Is not proper to know Me without getting that special status of Spirituality. See, I'm not saying anything, I'm not claiming anything, I've never claimed anything because I know how dangerous it is to claim something.
But what is the need to claim, I mean, what do I gain out of it - nothing. I mean, I'm not fighting for elections, I'm not asking for any position - nothing. So why should I claim anything, what is the need? I'm here just to give you your own key, that's all, so why should I claim? - Thanks Shri Mataji! It's okay. - You understand. May God bless you! - Thank you very much. - Any more questions?
No more questions. You've questioned Me, I think. - I'd like to well - Please come to the program. - Yeah, we'll [UNCLEAR] tomorrow, for sure. - Yes, yes - Sure we'll be there. - If it is something uh.. worth telling people, I think, you journalist - have to know your responsibilities. - Can I represent - I think, you Russian journalist are so good - Are they? [UNCLEAR - INDEED OR AGREED?] They published about Me in magazines which is given to all the - the aerofloat planes and everything - Yeah. - They're so full [UNCLEAR N INAUDIBLE] I, I never did anything for them as such, as I do here but the way they were open-minded, so open-minded even the Ministers came to My program.
Have I, is there something in their psyche, their personality might not be - See, they're not so conditioned we're very conditioned. At least it's, we are very conditioned by ideas, things like that and they are the ones they themselves go and find out. They don't listen to anybody like that, they just go and find out themselves. And I had met only two, three Russians who went down and told, "Mother, is coming." Also they are quite sensitive, I think, because [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] No, they didn't accept all these false gurus. They threw them out one by one - they wouldn't accept - and, I don't know, what sensitivity they have that because some people told Me they dreamt about Me uh.. that I'm coming and all that but I, I don't know how they take to Me so much and can you believe that we had to hire uh.. stadiums for 16000 people, 14000 people minimum and they all got realization What [UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR] there're other, perhaps, religions [UNCLEAR] other ways of thinking Oh, this is the integration of all the religions. We prove that they are all related to each other and it's only we are fighting, as I told you, with the flowers which are dead and saying, "This is mine, this is mine." Those flowers were grown on the same tree of spirituality; They're all related to each other - we can explain. Even logically we can explain everything, but, you see, when they are so self-opiniated, everybody thinks, you see, for example, you see, Indians think Hindus are the best, all the Muslims think they are the best and the Jews think they are the chosen ones, the Christians thinks nothing better than that - so what can you do to them? - If some people generally they try to be good to their fellow-men I think - That's limited - [UNCLEAR] - You see, when you do something - yes.
If you do something good to others, you see, still you develop a kind of a ego, very subtle it is - Yeah - but in this you don't say that - So you're not after anything? - No - in this what happens, your ego is opened out so when you're doing something, you don't say you're doing it - like he said, "It's coming, it's going." - He didn't say, "I'm raising," - nothing. I, I is not there. "It's coming," you become a third person. - Sure. Do You think there's a, there's a danger in talking about being connected with other individual thinking with which the universal [UNCLEAR]. You think, there is a danger in [UNCLEAR] like tend to lose our identity - to be cut off from - No, on the contrary you really know your identity better because you don't know yourself, you don't know much - what do you know? - I mean - I have a personal idea because - That's outwardly, inwardly you don't know why these problems are there, - why things happen to you - you don't know anything. - So, You basically have to say that people rather forget everything that You [UNCLEAR] - you know your essence, you see, you know your essence.
For example, now supposing, this tree is sick. Now I try to put some medicine on it - - it cannot be cured - you have to go to the roots - Yeah - so you go to your roots and find out your roots and you know what it is - it's very simple. - [UNCLEAR] that we have inside that's the [UNCLEAR - CAVE?] - Beg your pardon? - The Kundalini is the cave The Kundalini is the connection and you enter into the Kingdom of God - is what it is, as simple as that. What sort of [UNCLEAR] saying that in Australia 600 practising followers. - What about worldwide? Is there.. - I am very bad at accounts. Steven, can you say how many there are in the world? - See, I'm very bad at accounts, I can't say but there might be [UNCLEAR] - But do You think the gurus take very much, charge money - [UNCLEAR] the other way - Yeah - Yeah They are thrown out in no time.
Now I know where to put My finger. You see, before that I thought that how can these people make money? I trusted them because basically I think, human-being is a good being and he wants to be good but sometimes these things come up. Here, you see, in the West you have certain problems which I can never understand like homosexuality uh.. coming back in sahaja yoga or something like making money and all - I can't understand. Say for an Indian, no body would touch the money anymore but I find here they because - What's Your view on homosexuality? - Annh? - What do Your view on homosexuality? - You see, then you become normal. You see, a homosexual becomes normal, he marries nicely, then he leads a very normal life. - So, he becomes a heterosexual?
A normal, yes. You see, it comes out of hatred for women sometimes, it comes for hatred of men sometimes acquired for, because of certain experiences maybe, or maybe some thing in the atmosphere. I don't know how they become that way - but in any case in sahaja yoga they get corrected completely - they lead a very normal life. - So they come back to the normal? Yes, they become very normal - that's the point - in every way. They become extremely normal people. So, what about Christian homosexuals? What's your view on that? Is wrong - how can you have the clergymen like that. The other day only I read in the newspaper that in America they said that, "If the women want to have ordain, they wanted to be ordained, then they should be warned that the clergymen harass them."
I mean, this is not possible if they are religious - how can you do that, isn't it? It's very funny. That means the religion is outside, it's not thing inside. You see, you may be Christian, Hindu, Muslim - you do all kinds of sins, how can you be anything? - What about women in Church? Is there a place for women in Christian Church? Of course, it should be but somehow or other they cancelled. They never talked about Holy Ghost, that's the feminine power and they never talked about Mother of Christ in that way. For us She's a Goddess - for us She's a Goddess. Thanks, Shri Mataji [UNCLEAR] I don't know what all these people going to do if they have the time for the rest of the afternoon?
Ah, they enjoy themselves. They are never bored - that's one thing, they are never bored - they enjoy themselves. - Good! what are you doing Nick? - [UNCLEAR] So, who other, so through Self-realization who else gets with psychological problems Shri Mataji - Of course. - Psychological problems? - Of course, of course. Psychological - see, physical, psychological spiritual. Spiritual problems come because so many - false gurus are there and they create problems - False? - Gurus - Yeah, false gurus - so they create problems in the Kundalini and they - So, so something like homosexuality comes.
This is a proper mean, person's Kundalini - yeah - It makes you normal person and actually what happens you become really a free personality in the sense that nothing dominates you. No addictions, no ideologies, nothing - you're free absolutely and you are capable to be free because people are not capable to be free that's why this problem is there. Democracy becoming demonocracy - why? Because we cannot bear the freedom but after this freedom you are wise as well as free. So you don't even to be, it mustn't be like [UNCLEAR] the ideology or anything like We don't believe in ideologies as such but we know the essence of all the ideologies are the same. For example now, take it say, capitalism. Now I'm, if I have powers, I am a capitalist but I can't live with My capital, I have to distribute so I am the greatest communist. - Hmm, hmm. So you're being just [UNCLEAR] - Yeah - So all ideologies merge together - it's complete integration, it's complete. - Yeah - When did You [UNCLEAR]Quiz Pass?
Where is that? - Pardon? - The UN Organisation's quiz pass. Did you win that one year- the Quiz Pass in the UN? Not Me, uh.. no, no not Me. My husband was Secretary General there and the Queen has given him this highest award - the highest - which I think, Reagan has got only - and My husband has got this highest award, - Really? - Yes, of Knighthood and also he's got 31 awards more - Yeah - from major awards. He's a very unique person 32 awards but he openly says, "It's all because of my wife - I've got blessings because of Her because She does good to others that's why I've got blessings." - He was, he was with the United Nations and - He was, now he's in Delhi nowadays. He's writing a book about Lal Bahadur Shastri - so he's there.
He talks to Me on the phone. - Right. Do You one would You be busy this afternoon, do You have any more engagements this afternoon? - Tomorrow do You have any other engagements before the? - I'm always engaged somehow - Yeah - We have people here. With problems they come, I have to solve problems and things. - What do You think of this ashram? Is it the first time You've been here? - It's very nice. It's one of the oldest ones they started off and it's very good and a very nice people here and the first time I came to Australia, I came here, this ashram.
Do You think Australia has a, has a unique place on the world or is it any different, any special place? - Very much, very much, you see. Basically, they don't know, they're not aware but they're very innocent people - they're extremely innocent - Australians are, and their innocence is exploited and they are trying to follow these countries which are not so innocent like America or France. I don't think - they're very innocent countries. - Hmm, hmm. It would be better [UNCLEAR - TURN?] - Yes - Turn our back against [UNCLEAR] You should look at, into yourself. They are very innocent, no doubt - you have innocence personification here, I think, they're extremely innocent, that's always what My ideas of Australians are. - Is it a good thing? - It's very nice to be innocent because you're powerful.
Innocence has it's own power. - Yeah, yeah - But there's such an attack of innocence - [UNCLEAR] it's so perverted. - You lose it, you lose innocence? - No you never lose never lose - that's the best part of it - never lose it. It can be covered, it will be clouded but you don't lose it - it's always there. In sahaja yoga it always comes back - that's what I found sahaja yogis in Australia, they're very innocent, very innocent. - So innocent that anybody tells them, "Give so much money," they will give; - Yeah - They'll not even ask Me - so simple! I told them, "Why don't you ask Me for what is this money, where is it going?" - They must worry about the [UNCLEAR]. - Now I warned them, all of them, that, "You have to write to Me directly.
Yeah. - if there's any such thing." - So they won't [UNCLEAR] - Yeah, I warned them, very much, before because they're so innocent. This has not happened anywhere else but in Australia - because they don't inform Me. They go on suffering, they don't tell Me anything that people have been frightened and all that - they never tell Me. So this is a sign of innocence that you should accept this kind of a domination of someone - But obviously, it's not doing Your credibility any good because - No, credibility is not like that because, you see, human-beings have been given a freedom to go to Hell or go to Heaven. There I cannot play any role. I cannot bind them to Me, you see. - Yeah - It's your choice - you can go to Hell or you can go to Heaven; I can only tell them the path of Heaven but if they want to go to Hell, I cannot stop them - that's one thing - because God has given you this freedom. Human-beings have got this freedom, animals don't have any.
Only the human-beings have got this freedom, you see, so it is for them to use whichever way they want to use - how can I stop them? I, I do not govern them, I do not control them - they are controlled by themselves. Is alright, that's [UNCLEAR] - Terrific! Thanks, Shri Mataji, thanks very much. - May God bless you! - Yes. May God bless You! Thanks for [UNCLEAR] [CLAPPING] - that's the biggest audience I've ever heard. - It is, it is - a lot of my programs, they're going to be on TV - It is - [UNCLEAR] I hope these people are writing this book. - Alright, anyway, enjoy yourself so thanks Shri Mataji.
May God bless you! - and hope to see You tomorrow. - Yes, that's very kind of you. - You'll be there right around, won't You? [UNCLEAR] - You see, first they have some little music for - one, one song they sing. That's before I come and then I speak about this, the Truth part of it - introduction tomorrow and day after tomorrow, I'll explain more - Good! - Alright? - So you're going to get people back for second go? - On the second night, they come back on the second night too. - You are coming second night?
No, no let the people come, the audience come back to You on the second night - Or is it two different audiences? - No same, they repeat. They always, they always repeat. - Yeah, good. - Bring more friends, more people. Second day we have more people, much more. - I didn't get your name? - Mark. - Mark? - Mark Warren.
Did you offer them some tea or not? - We did, Mother. - Give them some cold drink to drink. It's very hot, very hot for them. Let them sit in the shade, I think. - What's it? - It seems the clouds are almost clear. You wanted the Sun, so it's alright. - We're all finished now. - Unnh?
It was nice. Because we have to give it to the B.B.C. also something they wanted to have so I'll tell them this one is sufficient for them because when I'm there, they are not there so we'll never meet. Funny way how to [UNCLEAR] Ha!