22 June 1982

Interview

Reading (England)

Talk Language: English | Transcript (English) – Reviewed

Interviewer: With me now is Mataji Nirmala Devi, if I’ve got that right. Mataji, welcome to 210. Good afternoon to you.

Shri Mataji: Good afternoon.

Interviewer: You are an Indian, you come from India, and you’re in this country at the moment. What are you doing? What are you teaching? What’s the idea of your tour?

Shri Mataji: I’m not teaching anything. It’s something manifesting through Me.

Interviewer: What?

Shri Mataji: It’s a happening.

Interviewer: Can you explain?

Shri Mataji: This happening is called as the awakening of a Kundalini, which is a residual force within us; is an energy which ultimately gives you self-realisation, the second birth or the “twice born” as Christ has described. That means you become something more than you are. We can say in a simile, you’ll understand it better. That you are born, supposing, like an egg and then you become a bird. This is the second birth that you have to achieve as a human being. That’s what is the breakthrough but it is done through an evolutionary process.

Interviewer: How do you achieve this, though, this second birth?

Shri Mataji: That’s just as we have achieved as a human stage from monkey stage. It’s spontaneous, it's all. It happens, it is all built in. It’s just to be aroused. We can say it is to be awakened just like a primule in a seed. It’s all there, it’s all within us.

Interviewer: But how do we do it?

Shri Mataji: For that, a person who is enlightened, like Me. I was a born enlightened person and in my presence, it happens. Supposing you become enlightened then you can do it also. It’s just like one enlightened light can enlighten another one, it's a...

Interviewer: But how do I become enlightened?

Shri Mataji: See, I will enlighten you, and then you can enlighten others.

Interviewer: But how do you enlighten me?

Shri Mataji: That’s a living process. Like you cannot describe how a seed sprouts. It’s a spontaneous thing. It’s built within you. It’s the nature of our being human beings that we get it.

Interviewer: So you’ve got to bring out this enlightenment in me somehow.

Shri Mataji: It is there within you, just now, in my presence it will awakened. That’s all.

Interviewer: But how do I know if it has awakened? What feelings would I get?

Shri Mataji: What you get is, first of all. When it rises up to the point where my forehead is that point, you feel thoughtlessly aware. There are no thoughts, you feel very relaxed. And then it happens that the Kundalini rises and pierces through the central part of the head called the fontanel bone. Then you can feel the cool breeze coming out of you. You can feel it with your own hand. And you can feel the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost, the divine power that is surrounding us. You can feel it, that your hands start speaking as Christ has described.

Interviewer: But unless you wanted this to happen, it wouldn’t happen then?

Shri Mataji: No, it won’t because, you see, God has given us freedom. If we want, we can have hell, if we want, we can have heaven. Quite a long way to cross that. So that cannot be done. You have to ask for it. If you don’t ask for it, you cannot force it on people, it should not be done. For you it's the thing you have to achieve and whatever human freedom we have must be respected.

Interviewer: How did you discover that you had this power to bring out this enlightenest in other people?

Shri Mataji: I never discovered because I had it with Me from My very childhood. I knew it. But I wanted to find out all the permutations and combinations of problems with human beings to make it a mass thing. It can be done for an individual, one person. It’s very easy. But how to make it a mass thing that was my problem. That I worked out by understanding human beings and their problems through a very subtle method. And then I found out that it’s very easy to even give mass realis ation to people.

Interviewer: How? How do you do it?

Shri Mataji: It just happens in my presence. They get it.

Interviewer: You can’t explain why you got this then?

Shri Mataji: Because I have to do this job.

Interviewer: You’re destined to do this job?

Shri Mataji: Yes, please. That’s what it is.

Interviewer: Now, you come from a country that’s not a Christian country. It’s basically the majority of religions are not as we know it. Why do you think that you were chosen?

Shri Mataji: Why I was chosen? Somebody has to be chosen.

Interviewer: But why should it be you?

Shri Mataji: Because I’ve done this job before also. In my previous lives I’ve been doing the same job. And I know all about it.

Interviewer: Can you recall your previous lives?

Shri Mataji: Yes, of course.

Interviewer: How long ago were they?

Shri Mataji: About 2,000 years back. The last one.

Interviewer: What was it like then? What was the world like?

Shri Mataji: You see, these questions I rather, I would not like to disclose because it’s better that they come and discover it. Because if you tell them something, they’ll crucify, you know? They’re struggling with human beings. They’re very stupid, some of them.

Interviewer: If you were alive 2,000 years ago and you’re back now, what have you been doing for the 2,000 years in between?

Shri Mataji: Working out all these things to understand human beings.

Interviewer: Are you any closer to understanding human beings?

Shri Mataji: Yes. Now I think I’ve got a human realisation.

Interviewer: Do you like your fellow human beings?

Shri Mataji: Very much, I love them. They are the highest thing. They are the greatest thing God has created. They don’t know themselves. That’s why they don’t know their glory. I mean, they are the ones who are going to understand God. They are the ones who are going to use all His powers. They are the ones who have to enter into the kingdom of God.

Interviewer: But they’re also the most wicked things on the earth, aren’t they?

Shri Mataji: That’s in their freedom, in their stupidity, in their ignorance they have done it. But everything can be forgiven.

Interviewer: But some people choose to be cruel, don’t they? They get pleasure out of it.

Shri Mataji: They’ll forget it when they will know there are higher pleasures in life. I have hopes. I’ve seen many people changing, transforming themselves completely after coming to Sahaja Yoga after becoming the spirit because it’s so enjoyable.

Interviewer: How many times do people have to visit you in order to obtain this enlightenment?

Shri Mataji: How many times?

Interviewer: Do people have to come and see you just once?

Shri Mataji: Some of them only once and some of them have to come again and again. It depends on the quality of the personality. But then they want to see me again and again, because it’s so vast. The knowledge is so vast and so beautiful.

Interviewer: If we get this enlightenest, are you saying that then our lives will be much, much happier?

Shri Mataji: A thousand times more because you become the joy. The source of joy is your spirit. Not these material things; they are not the source of joy.

Interviewer: But some people search for God for a lifetime and never find him.

Shri Mataji: But maybe there's something special about Me. That I founded like that.

Interviewer: We'll talk to you more in just a while, time by the way seventeen and a half minutes away from three.

(A song break)

Interviewer: Lets get back to Mataji Nirmala Devi. We’re talking about enlightenment, Her form of enlightenment. Mataji, supposing somebody listening to us at home now and they wanted to have this fulfilment, this enlightenment, could you do it through the radio waves?

Shri Mataji: Maybe with many it might work out, if they can put their hands towards the radio as such. Because aether is there and aether can carry the vibrations. And they can ask a question, or they can say that, “Mother, please give me realisation.” Because unless and until they ask for it, I cannot force on them. As I told you, that we have to respect the freedom of the people, so it is for them to ask. If they ask, it will work out, and they’ll feel the cool breeze in their hands. It has worked in many places, and it should work out here also. If they could just place their hands towards the radio and just say that, “Please give me my realisation,” that’s sufficient.

Interviewer: And it will work for some people.

Shri Mataji: Say it twice and it may work out. Then you will start feeling the cool breeze in their hands, no doubt it. And a kind of an energy flowing into them.

Interviewer: Are you saying, then, that we’re now moving towards a new, enlightened and happier period in this world?

Shri Mataji: Of course, we have too. Because God has created all this universe, everything, then the beautiful human beings and now you have to become what you are.

Interviewer: But that’s not much of a sign of it, is it? I mean, the world is in a pretty terrible state. I mean, there’s wars all the time, there’s people…

Shri Mataji: You have to have confusion, otherwise people don’t take to these things. That’s important.

Interviewer: You go all over the world, don’t you, explaining this to people?

Shri Mataji: God?

Interviewer: Yes.

Shri Mataji: It’s a very simple thing to understand God. Is God is a power which creates the whole universe, everything but it has a witness. It has a part that is the witness which sees it's power working out the whole thing. And this witness is the God Almighty, as we call Him. But He's just a witness but His power is doing all creation and then all evolution and creating human beings, bringing us to this stage. And then, ultimately, when you receive your realisation, you become one with that part within you which is that God Almighty. Which is the witness, which is the collective being within you, the spirit. As in Sanskrit, it’s called as Atma. That you become. Once you become that then you become also collectively conscious.

Interviewer: What’s your attitude towards the established church?

Shri Mataji: Rather controversial but church cannot deliver the goods. It’s an organized thing. You cannot organize God. Church is doing all right, as far as establishing the basic things are concerned, that keeping people in the centre. But I don’t know if they have been able to do that also. But they must do the second part of it, is to give realisation to make them really baptized, really baptized, not artificially, but really baptized. Means giving them the second birth. If they cannot achieve that all this will have no meaning, and people will think it’s just a taboo on us.

Interviewer: Are you saying, then, in order to be a godly person, there’s no need to go to the organized church to go for service?

Shri Mataji: There’s no need. There’s no need, in a way. There’s no need at all. But churches had to do this job, is to establish you in a balance, to put a balance in you, so that you become entitled for this. But there are many people I’ve met who have never been to a church or to a temple or anywhere, are extremely balanced, and much better than people who go to church. Because sometimes church can be a kind of an escape for people to say, “All right, I will go Sunday to the church, and then I can do what I like.”

Interviewer: So they use it as an excuse to [UNCLEAR) out things.

Shri Mataji: People can use it for an excuse also unless and until they give the thing that it’s meant for. You see, church is meant for self-realisation and not just for teaching them, “Don’t do this and don’t do that”. And after sometime young people are not going to listen to you. They’ll ask questions, “Why not? What’s wrong?”

Interviewer: You were talking about God earlier. If you were asked to describe God, what would he look like? What would God be like?

Shri Mataji: He’s just like a human being, we can say, to look at, maybe. But He doesn’t exist in that way. If He wants to take a form, He can take a human form.

Interviewer: If the divine spirit, when we die, if there is a heaven, what is heaven?

Shri Mataji: Heaven is within the area of God itself. It’s in the brain of God. It’s the heaven.

Interviewer: Now, what about a person who’s been particularly unpleasant all their lives? What happens to them?

Shri Mataji: They’ll have to learn it. Actually, they learn it every day. When you are unpleasant to others, you get unpleasantness. If you are hateful to others, you get hatred. Gradually, they go on learning. But if they do not learn well then they can have bigger shocks and something may happen. Even if they don’t learn it when they come to realisation, they realize. Because they cannot get vibrations and even if they get it, once they become unpleasant again, they lose it. You see, so they don’t want to miss it again, so they want to correct it. Automatically, you become religious. You are not to be told; you just become.

Interviewer: What about the people in your own country, where there is a lot of poorness, a lot of poverty? People who have lived very, very unhappy lives. I mean, what about people like that?

Shri Mataji: No, they are not unhappy. They are poor, but they are not unhappy. They are very happy people.

Interviewer: But if there’s nothing but food… I mean, there are parts of the world where people are literally dying. Starvation. Uganda is a good example. I mean, there, it must be absolutely awful. I mean, how can people like that…

Shri Mataji: You see, Sahaja Yoga works out in the centre. So it’s more for the people who are in the centre. Not for the very rich and not for the very poor, to begin with. But then like a river, it expands. The river flows more deeply in the centre. Then it expands to the sides. So first, we solve the problem of the people who are more in the mainstream. And then it expands to the rich and also to the poor.

Interviewer: We will talk to you more. By the way it's eight minutes away from three.

(A song break)

Interviewer: Our guest is Mataji Nirmala Devi, am I talking about Her awareness? Mataji, if we can go back to your own country of India once again. Once again, there’s lots of disease there. I mean, are you capable of helping people that are suffering from things like this?

Shri Mataji: Yes. You see, diseases are caused by the imbalances in the body, of the different elements going into different imbalances. And it is to be re-established. Now, what I’m talking about is this cool breeze of the Holy Ghost, is actually the divine power of love of God. And this is called as Brahma in Sanskrit language. And this power does all that is living. For example, transformation of a flower into a fruit. And all living things are done by this. What we do is only dead. But we have ego about it. But we do only dead work, from dead to dead. But living things, all living work is done by this power. Now, when somebody is suffering from any disease, it’s the lack of this living power in that person. But when you give that power to that person, he recovers back. And even cancer and any other diseases can be cured. So many can be cured by giving this divine love.

Interviewer: In a way, anybody listening to us who is ill, I mean, you’ve sort of given a hope there. I mean, can this be substantiated?

Shri Mataji: Absolutely. Absolutely, it can be. I’ve cured so many people you can’t imagine. I mean, there are articles and articles about it. And it is true that it can be cured. And not only Me but so many of my disciples are now cured. Recently a girl from America has cured a blood cancer patient, blood cancer is absolutely curable. So many cancers we have cured. No doubt about it. But it’s not a curing centre. It is a centre to make you doctors first.

Interviewer: Are you saying that everybody, in a way, has got this power?

Shri Mataji: Can get, yes.

Interviewer: But it’s not developed in other people?

Shri Mataji: Yes, yes. It has to be manifested. Everybody has a dormant state. Everyone. Every human being.

Interviewer: What are your ambitions? I mean, what do you intend to do now? I mean, not immediately, but I mean, have you got long plans to go around the world?

Shri Mataji: This is the only solution for all our problems in this whole cosmos. This, I don’t find here is any other problem. For example, now, say your politics can be completely corrected because, supposing I have all my powers, so I’m a complete capitalist. But I cannot enjoy it because I do not share it. So I have to share it with others. So I’m a complete communist. That’s how we solve it. All your problems, economics, everything is solved through Sahaja Yoga only. Because whatever you are trying to do at the level where you are not yet complete, we have not understood ourselves.

Interviewer: You’re also giving a talk tonight, aren’t you, I believe, in the Kennet Room at the Civic Offices at 7.30.

Shri Mataji: Yes, please. Will you please tell them the exact time?

Interviewer: It’s 7.30 at the Kennet Room in the Civic Offices. If anybody wants to find out more about you, they can go along and meet you tonight.

Shri Mataji: Thank you very much. Thank you.

Interviewer: Mataji, thank you very much for coming in. It’s really nice talking to you.

Shri Mataji: Thank you.

Interviewer: Keith will be along after the news to take us through until 7 o’clock. And from me, Mike, many, many thanks for having me at your place. Till tomorrow. Take care. Bye.