9 January 1990

Interview

Ganapatipule (India)

Talk Language: Hindi | Translation (Hindi to English) - Reviewed

Reporter – Shri Mataji, what is the ultimate truth of human life? What is God, and how can He be realized? Would you please share your thoughts on this?

Shri Mataji – The ultimate truth and goal of human life is one and the same: to realize the Truth. And what is that Truth? That we are the Spirit. We are not this body, mind, intellect, or ego — we are the Spirit, and we must attain that state of being. This alone is the Truth, and this alone is the goal of life. The Spirit is the foundation of collective consciousness. Moreover, it is the source of true joy, the source of Truth, and it is what enlightens our awareness. Therefore, we must realize the Spirit within us, and doing so is very easy.

Reporter: It has been observed earlier, and even written in the scriptures, that people used to wander from place to place in search of this truth. Even after years of penance or serving a guru, it was not guaranteed that one would attain this truth. But now, as I myself have received realization before you, and I’ve seen thousands of others receiving it so easily — how has this become possible?

Shri Mataji: This had to happen. Just like in nature, when a tree starts to grow, initially only a few leaves or flowers appear. But as the tree evolves and matures, it bears many flowers at once. In the same way, I call this the "Blossom Time" — the springtime of spirituality. Earlier, seekers would go into the caves and mountains searching for God, but now even simple householders are achieving it. These souls have already gone through all those past efforts and penances. If you look at any great discovery, initially it takes a lot of hard work, often over centuries, and only then does it become available for the benefit of the entire society. For example, look at electricity — how much effort went into discovering and harnessing it! But today, even remote villages have access to it. So, such a time must arrive.

Reporter: Now, one more question: what is Kundalini, and how does its awakening happen? From what I understand, Kundalini is the only path through which the Truth can be realized. How does this awakening occur?

Shri Mataji: Kundalini is a living energy within us — just like we have a heart and many active energies inside our body, similarly, the Kundalini is a dormant energy residing in a triangular bone at the base of the spine, called the sacrum (which itself means "sacred"). This energy is what we call the “pure desire.” All other desires, as even economics suggests, are insatiable — you fulfill one, another arises, and even if fulfilled, they don’t bring satisfaction. But this is a pure desire — and whether you're aware of it or not, this desire exists: the desire to unite with the all-pervading divine energy. This is the true desire.

Reporter: Is it necessary for every ordinary person to be a seeker in order to attain this?

Shri Mataji: In fact, it is the ordinary people who receive it the quickest. Those who think of themselves as extraordinary often become egoistic, and the Kundalini itself hesitates to rise. Every person has their own individual Kundalini — she is like a personal mother. Like a tape recorder, she has recorded everything in your being. She knows exactly where you stand and responds accordingly. She knows which of your chakras are blocked and how far she can rise safely. In some cases, due to antisocial behavior, selfishness, fanaticism, or even cruelty, the Kundalini becomes deeply wounded and lies dormant like a severely injured power. Awakening her in such cases is very difficult.

Reporter: I’ve seen cases like my friend in Dehradun, Sharing Rawal, who had blood cancer — and many others here with serious illnesses — but now they’re well. Medically, it didn’t seem possible. How has this healing happened through Sahaja Yoga?

Shri Mataji: When the Kundalini is awakened, she rises through our six chakras, and as she passes through them, the presiding deities or divine energies within those chakras are awakened. They, in turn, bestow their healing power, and through this power, the person is healed. Now, in today’s age, if someone talks about deities, people may find it difficult to understand. But what I am telling you is the Truth.

Reporter: In Sahaja Yoga, people talk about the experience of "Cool Breeze" or "Chaitanya (vibrations)". What is this exactly? And how can an ordinary person experience it?

Shri Mataji: In reality, all around us — in every particle, in all living and non-living things — this divine energy, known as Chaitanya, is present. This Param Chaitanya is the power of God, the energy of the Adi Shakti. It is an extremely subtle energy that governs everything. We tend to take many phenomena for granted — for instance, how a tiny seed, when placed in the mother's womb of the earth, gives rise to thousands of trees, or how any living process occurs. It is this same divine energy that performs all such living processes. Even the automatic functions within us — like our heartbeat, digestion, etc. — are all governed by this energy. We have merely accepted its existence without truly understanding it. Science only observes the external aspects, but to perceive this subtle force within, one must go inward — into the realm of subtlety.

Reporter: In spiritual scriptures, it is written that "Desire should be for Pure Desire." What does this mean? What is the difference between ordinary desire and pure desire?

Shri Mataji: As I mentioned, human desires are never truly fulfilled — how, then, can they be called pure? If they were pure, they would bring satisfaction. But they don’t. One desire is followed by another, then another. But pure desire is that which, when fulfilled, connects you with the all-pervading divine power. For example, consider an electrical appliance. Until you plug it into the main power, no matter how much you try, it won’t work. But once it’s connected, it functions perfectly. In the same way, when you're connected to the Divine through your pure desire, you attain true satisfaction. Not only that, but your attention becomes so enlightened that you’re amazed at your own transformation — you begin to wonder what special being you’ve become. Imagine taking a television to a remote village and telling someone it can show beautiful dances and scenes from around the world. They’d laugh at you — “What nonsense! This is just a box!” But once it’s plugged in, they’re astonished. Similarly, we are like the most sophisticated computers or televisions — far more advanced than anything man-made — and we must learn to use this inner instrument.

Reporter: One more thing — I’ve noticed that many people who used to drink alcohol or smoke before coming to Sahaja Yoga now have completely stopped. In a seminar with thousands of people, I haven’t seen a single person smoking. How do you explain this?

Shri Mataji: Yes, many give it up overnight. The reason is that once your Spirit is awakened, light enters within you. Suppose we tell you that you're holding a snake in your hand in the dark — you might argue it’s just a rope. But the moment the light is turned on, you drop it instantly, without needing persuasion. Similarly, when this inner light shines, you drop all that harms you. You become immensely powerful — but this power is filled with love. That’s the special thing. You become very dynamic, yet at the same time, an immense flow of love starts from within you.

Reporter: One last question I really wish to ask — is it enough for someone to just live a good, moral life? Or is it still essential for even ordinary people to enter into spirituality, just like those who carry the pure desire?

Shri Mataji: People who believe they are leading good, moral lives often develop a subtle ego about their goodness. That’s why Lord Krishna said, “Do your duties and surrender the results to Me,” which means to go beyond action — to a state of non-action (akarma). This is only possible after Self-realization. Also, He used one specific word to define true devotion — Ananya, meaning without another. Such devotion is only possible after Self-realization. So, what we consider as good deeds in daily life are usually based on our limited intellectual understanding. But Truth can only be known through the Spirit — and that is the ultimate Truth. That’s why, in Sahaja Yoga, everyone speaks the same Truth. No one argues or debates. There’s no room for disagreement — only the joy of sharing one another's experience.

Reporter: As you've said, it's essential now for everyone to turn towards spirituality. But how can a person maintain a balance between spiritual and worldly life?

Shri Mataji: That balance comes naturally because a transformation occurs. The ego within is reduced. The conditionings and false patterns fall away. The person becomes healthy, loving, and wise — someone truly evolved. Living with such a person is a joy. Even the children become better, and conflicts in relationships reduce significantly. Most conflicts arise from ignorance. In darkness, people sit confused — unaware of their relationship with each other. If they try to move in that darkness, they step on each other, hurt one another without knowing. But when the light comes, everyone can see their own place, and others’ too — and no one violates another's space or freedom.

Reporter: Let us now assume that every ordinary person has understood the need to turn towards spirituality. For this, they might seek a guru. How can they differentiate between a false guru and a true one — a Sadguru?

Shri Mataji: There are many signs to identify a Sadguru, as described by all the great gurus themselves. But a common person should consider where the guru’s attention (chitta) resides. If his attention is with the poor, the suffering, and those in distress — if his life from the beginning has been devoted to the service of such people — then that's a mark of a true guru. For example, during our country's struggle for independence, saints like Tukudon ji Maharaj and others such as Garge Maharaj dedicated themselves to helping the poor. Their attention always remained with the oppressed. They would stay away from the rich, powerful, or highly successful people — those in politics or positions of fame — having no interest in such individuals. Instead, they cared only for those at the lowest levels of society, deeply empathizing with their pain. That’s one key sign.

Secondly, a true Sadguru has no interest whatsoever in your money or any material possessions. In fact, they don’t even understand money, banking, or economics — it simply doesn’t register for them. They are incredibly generous; whatever comes into their hands, they give away. In our own home, people are often afraid that I might one day give away the entire house! My family gets anxious because I’ve already donated so much and they wonder what might come next.

Reporter: We're currently seeing rapid political shifts in the West. Marxism seems to be collapsing, and countries like Czechoslovakia, Romania, and Russia are undergoing dramatic changes. Why is this happening so suddenly across the world?

Shri Mataji: You may not believe it, but there was a yoga seminar in Russia where I had been invited. I had already visited Russia before and some groundwork had been done. Many questioned why I was going. I said that people from the Eastern Bloc would attend the yoga seminar. And they did come. I was given only 45 minutes — I spoke about Sahaja Yoga for 30 minutes, and in the remaining 15 minutes, those people attained Self-realization. As soon as I stepped out of the hall, they too left their seats and followed. Nobody remained inside. They gave their addresses — people from all those Eastern Bloc countries. These Sahaja Yogis acted like a trigger. I had said about Hungary, for example, that if even one Hungarian becomes a Sahaja Yogi, Hungary will attain independence. Amazingly, within eight days of one Hungarian attending Sahaja Yoga, a declaration of independence was made.

One must understand the mechanism of the “Self.” To know this mechanism is true freedom. The Self means the Spirit. If you haven't realized the mechanism of your own Self, then everything else is meaningless. The difference between tantra and Sahaja Yoga is as vast as darkness and light. Those practicing false tantra don't know anything real — they do all sorts of wrong things, lie, create blind faith, instill fear, and speak of harmful, dark subjects. All this is nothing but black magic and spirit-calling. Even hypnosis falls under this — it's a demonic, dangerous act. A person who uses hypnosis often dies a horrible death, and the one hypnotized also ends up with a ruined life.

Reporter: Isn’t it possible that the world is now moving back toward capitalism since Marxism has ended? These are two extremes: Marxism and capitalism.

Shri Mataji: Going to any extreme means losing your balance. Our brain itself has two lobes, not one — one on the left and one on the right. A person who becomes overly outward and extroverted develops only one lobe, usually the left. The right lobe remains undeveloped, leading to imbalance. That’s why, in Western countries — and you won't truly understand this until you live there — people have become extremely dry, emotionally desolate. They have fallen from humanity itself. Violence is rampant. There's less corruption because of fear, but it still exists. Democracy seems impossible without corruption. They’ve developed such harmful habits — turning to drugs and other vices to escape ego — and are caught in epidemics like AIDS.

In America, I see that most people are extremely nervous — their nervous systems are so deteriorated that they’re almost shattered. Others suffer from disorders we don’t even see in India, like schizophrenia. The problem is, they've lost all balance. People who chase only science must realize that science is merely a tool for human life — it cannot be everything. It has its limits. Most importantly, science cannot touch the humanity of a person. That’s why people obsessed with science often become aggressive, self-centered, and disruptive to society. Their social structure is so fragmented that it's shocking.

In England, for example, parents kill at least two of their children every week. In some cases, grandchildren have killed their grandparents — and in the most bizarre, horrifying ways. And they enjoy it! On my last trip to Los Angeles, I was told that 11 people had been murdered the previous week on the road I was traveling — for no reason, just at the heck of it. People enjoy violence. This is what happens when human beings lose balance.

Those who believe that the West is in a great state are mistaken. Yes, they have money — but money isn’t everything. Those leaning toward capitalism must understand that capital alone cannot achieve everything. Yes, in socialist or communist systems, there were also extremes — focus on power while ignoring essential human needs. Yet I still say that Russian people are wonderful. Despite all that their government did, they don’t harbour religious fanaticism or blind faith. They aren't burdened by man-made religions. They are, in fact, very free thinkers, untouched by political entanglements.

When I visited, I was amazed — people there had even worked on Shri Chakra, studied our scriptures deeply, and had a surprising amount of spiritual knowledge. They’re very evolved people. While the government may have faltered slightly, I believe Gorbachev — a realized soul and a highly evolved being — is a great man. People created problems just to bring his government down. In reality, there’s plenty of food and housing for everyone in Russia. Public transport is nearly free, and their metro stations look like palaces. According to me, they have comfort and infrastructure. The only issue was their lack of freedom, which made it difficult for us to spread Sahaja Yoga there. But because of their disciplined nature, they’ve developed deep spiritual qualities — and they achieve Self-realization incredibly quickly, despite not having a deep religious heritage. In fact, the Russian government has officially recognized Sahaja Yoga.

Reporter: A new wave of disarmament has begun globally, especially after the political emergence of Mr. Gorbachev. What future do you foresee for this?

Shri Mataji: It’s truly a remarkable thing. When there are two people, there is conflict—clapping can’t happen with one hand. When one hand withdraws, the other doesn’t know what to do. Mr. Gorbachev withdrew honestly and completely, which compels the other side to rethink its stance. Disarmament had to happen, and if it had happened earlier, it would have been even better. But everything comes at its destined time. He has acted with utmost sincerity regarding disarmament, and there is no doubt about his intentions. Some stubborn countries still want to keep weapons for their own security, but there's no need. When you are unarmed, you are safer. In Sahaja Yoga, we believe that a saint does not need to attack anyone—he carries divine powers, and no one can harm him. Even if something minor happens, it can be corrected.

Reporter: The United Nations was established to bring world peace. However, many times it seems ineffective in preventing wars or establishing harmony. The veto power held by some countries often neutralizes peace proposals from smaller nations. What is the future of the UN, and can it truly succeed in establishing global unity?

Shri Mataji: People must reflect—those who wish to establish peace, are they themselves peaceful? Have they attained inner peace? Most of them are restless inside. The UN is composed of many nations, each with its own ideologies and agendas. Everyone believes their approach is right; few actually consider peace the goal. This makes the organization inherently unstable. But if the people within the UN attain inner peace—through Sahaja Yoga meditation, for instance—a silent power will begin to work through them. It will influence others. Thankfully, a Sahaja Yoga meditation center has now been established at the UN. If officials meditate and experience peace within, they can become instruments of change. Currently, every UN Secretary-General must please all member countries, especially those funding the organization. For example, the US recently withdrew funding from UNESCO out of dissatisfaction. In such conditions, how can such institutions work independently? They can’t. However, if the officials are self-realized and their appointments are free from political influence, then meaningful work can be done. Where Sahaja Yoga has spread, people are peaceful and joyful, and they genuinely want peace for others. Sadly, I have seen even those who receive peace awards are internally very disturbed. It’s surprising they get such awards at all.

Reporter: In how many countries has Sahaja Yoga spread so far?

Shri Mataji: Excluding India, it has spread to around 36 countries. Including India and Russia, it’s active in about 38 nations. Besides these, it has reached many small places as well. In South Africa alone, around 2,000 people are practicing it.

Reporter: That’s quite surprising. Coming back to politics—India too has recently witnessed a major political shift. For the first time, people have clearly voted against ruling governments, both in the North and the South. A new political chapter has begun. What future do you see for this change?

Shri Mataji: Indian people are deeply troubled by corruption. However, even after voting out corrupt leaders, the new ones must realize their duty—to eradicate corruption completely. They must cut all ties with those involved in dishonest practices. If we can establish a clean and pure system, India, being a spiritual and sacred land, will flourish. This is a land of yoga. Even today, people hold deep reverence for Lal Bahadur Shastri. When he passed away, even military men cried as though they had lost their own father. He was a true patriot, deeply devoted to the nation, and utterly honest. The idea of stealing public money never even occurred to him. Such individuals may come rarely, but their legacy lives on, even abroad. No one has ever spoken a single word against him.

Reporter: It is said that you also participated in the freedom struggle and were even imprisoned. After independence, did you ever feel the need to enter politics?

Shri Mataji: From a young age, I was with Mahatma Gandhi, who affectionately called me "Nepali." He was deeply spiritual and pure, strict but very loving towards children, and he adored me. He believed we couldn’t talk about the soul until India was free. He was convinced that once we gained independence, spiritual work could begin. If he were alive today, he would have surely supported Sahaja Yoga. But unfortunately, after independence, things changed—people came to power who had not participated in the freedom movement. Yes, I was deeply involved in the movement. Though I was never formally imprisoned—since I kept changing locations to avoid arrest—I was tortured by the police, given electric shocks, and even forced to lie on ice. My parents went to jail many times and made immense sacrifices for the nation. My mother never told a lie in her life. Despite having 11 children, she went to jail five times. My father too gave up everything for the country. We grew up around truly great people, and it saddens me that today’s children don’t get to witness what we did.

Reporter: It is said that heaven and hell exist here on earth itself. Is this a truth or just an illusion?

Shri Mataji: Heaven absolutely exists on earth. But our imagination of heaven is distorted—we often think it means feasting, luxuries, cars, comforts. True heaven is the state of the Self. When a person realizes the Self, they find joy and satisfaction within the spirit. For example, I was born in a royal household. Later, my father went to jail, and we lived in huts. Then I married into a prestigious family again. I have lived both kinds of lives. But I can sleep on the floor, live anywhere—it makes no difference to me. Similarly, look at Sahaja Yogis. They have homes, cars, comforts, yet they live simply. Once the joy of the spirit arises, all outer pleasures become secondary. They live in bliss, unaffected by material conditions. That is true heaven.

Reporter: Environmental issues have become very important these days. The world is taking it seriously, yet the atmosphere is severely polluted. How can this be improved? What would you suggest?

Shri Mataji: The cause of environmental pollution is that we need to understand one truth—machines were made for us; we were not made for machines. There is no balance. Machines should only be made as much as needed. They can’t function properly unless used judiciously. So, for that balance, first we must develop collectivity. Once collectivity sets in, a person will think: “How many machines should I produce? Only as many as needed.” Like a housewife, she plans meals based on how much is needed. But if you hand that role to a man, he may say: “Let’s cook more, sell the rest,” and so on. A woman’s tendency is to be balanced and produce only what’s necessary. Similarly, we should handle machines with the same mindset. In Western countries, this is a major issue. But Sahaja Yoga can help a bit. For instance, Dr. Hameed from Austria, who is in agriculture, encountered a crisis where forests were dying due to polluted air and acid rain. He used what we call vibrated water (water infused with spiritual vibrations), and while trees over 60 years couldn’t be saved, the younger ones revived and became lush green again.

Reporter: He showed me photographs comparing vibrated seeds and non-vibrated seeds. The production from vibrated seeds was 30% higher than the non-vibrated ones?

Shri Mataji: It’s often much more than that.

Reporter: So, do the vibrations initiate a process in them?

Shri Mataji: Vibrations carry at least three types of powers. First, there’s the electromagnetic energy, then pranic energy—both are right-sided energies. The third is mental energy, which fulfills the divine will of the all-pervading power (Param Chaitanya). Additionally, there’s the power of evolution (utkranti). Think of it like a spacecraft: the initial modules lift the rocket slowly, then explode and detach, giving the next stage acceleration. Vibrations carry a similar evolutionary force that triggers continuous advancement. You’d be surprised—we sowed basmati rice on one acre that typically yields 60 kilos, but we harvested 1400 kilos! The quality was so excellent that people said they’d never seen such beautiful basmati. They used to say it couldn’t even grow there. We’ve even grown olives and tulips with success. With vibrations, anything is possible—even what’s considered impossible in India can become reality.

Reporter: May I ask a personal question? I’ve noticed during every meeting with you that you seem very fond of flowers, especially roses?

Shri Mataji: Not only roses—I like all flowers. I am particularly drawn to natural fragrances, as fragrance is the essence of Earth. It’s what the Earth is made of, and since the earth element is very important, I enjoy any natural (not artificial) fragrance. I also adore children—give me a hundred children and I’ll forget the whole world and just be with them. As for flowers, I don’t demand them, but if you must give something, then give flowers. They make life fragrant. And we can learn a lot from flowers—they live just for a moment yet spread so much beauty and fragrance. A flower is the peak expression of a tree, and from it comes fruit. That’s why it’s symbolic. All spiritual people have loved flowers and nature. But the greatest love should be for human beings, because nature expresses itself most beautifully through them. If the clouds of ignorance are removed, humans are the most beautiful creation. God has made man the highest being. He just hasn’t found his true place yet. Once he does, he becomes extraordinary. Just look at these Sahaja Yogis—people from 36 countries living in complete harmony, without conflict. When I see their love for each other, my heart fills with joy.

Reporter: You also have a deep interest in music?

Shri Mataji: Actually, I have a passion for all forms of art—music, sculpture, handicrafts, architecture, everything. Even medicine fascinates me. Knowledge already exists within us. Scientists discover what's outside, but if one has the light of the spirit, they can access knowledge in any field. Once someone came and asked me about genetics. I felt I must tell him, and shared a lot—now he says research is being done on those points. But the person who asks must be deserving. If someone demands, like putting a gun to my head, I will go completely silent. Then I become like a fool and won’t say a word.

Reporter: You're so busy, but whenever you get a moment of leisure, how do you like to spend it?

Shri Mataji: I’m happiest when alone—because everything I need is within me. I never feel alone. I honestly don’t even know what boredom is.

Reporter: One final question: What is the future of the world? What do you see coming in the years ahead?

Shri Mataji: I believe Kaliyuga (the Age of Darkness) is over. In its place has come Kritayuga, a transitional age where the all-pervading divine power is now active. The Satya Yuga (Age of Truth) is at the doorstep. But to enter it, humans must attain self-realization. When I look at Sahaja Yogis, I feel they are already in Satya Yuga. This is like Vaikuntha or Dwarka—a divine realm. Inside, it feels perfect, but stepping outside, I see there’s still a lot to be done. Many people need to be transformed. Many wrong forces are active that block the progress of humanity. But truth is always self-illuminating and can establish itself.

Reporter: You’ve given us so much of your time. I’m sure our viewers will greatly benefit. I would like to request a final message from you.

Shri Mataji: My only message is very simple: Know your Spirit. Realize your own power. It is your own. I have nothing to do with it. Just like one lit lamp can light another—if the second lamp is ready. Once lit, that lamp can light others. In this way, all the world’s sorrows, struggles, and sufferings can end—if we establish that inner light within ourselves.

Reporter: Thank you very much, Shri Mataji.